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The Colorado River is shrinking

sciencemag.org

171–180 of 258 posts

Re: The Colorado River is shrinking

#171
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Sure, let's ignore the simple solution - stop consuming so much water" I agree that it's a demand-side issue, but the solutions are not "simple".

They are "simple", but hard to implement. You stop farming and in arid areas (and also stop high water consumption industries in those same areas) - simple. Also simple to achieve: either tax industrial water usage, or outright ration water for industrial use. Hard to do - people don't want to move, local food shortages may happen, people hate taxes and price hikes etc.

With the proposed implementation, its merely a concept and not a solution. As they say, the devil is in the details. The n-order impacts of such a systemic change would not be simple. So as a concept, it's simple. As a solution, it's complex.

For example, many people will fight the industrial and agricultural water use tax because their jobs depend on it. It would force people out of that area when those jobs dry up, just as the mandatory changes would.

Re: The Colorado River is shrinking

#172
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

nit-pick, but only a tiny portion of Utah is in the Mojave desert. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mojave_Desert

While that may be accurate, it's still a lot of acerage that is specifically Mojave. At the same time, if I stand on the border of the Mojave in Utah, I'm still in a desert anywhere I go.

Humans love taxonomy, nature does not.

If you stand on the border of the Mojave, you probably have one foot in the Great Basin desert that covers the west half of the state. The parent probably simply described or generalized to the wrong desert.

A climate map [1] shows that the only parts of the state which aren't desert are arid mountains; the Salt Lake area has a bit of lake effect snow but that's not in the Colorado River watershed.

[1] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/95/Utah_K%C...

Re: The Colorado River is shrinking

#173
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It works, but it requires tons of precious metals to get to work and we could never recover the amount of water or even the metals themselves to make it efficient. Do-able, just going to cost money like no tomorrow. Literally the definition of throwing money at the problem. When you have a uber rich oil state with plenty of cash to burn, it'll work until they run out of cash or desire.

The UAE does not have a Mississippi river. One side of the country is a desert unsuitable for growing crops, naturally stubborn Americans grow crops there anyway at staggering economic and environmental cost. Meanwhile on the other side of the Mississippi, where I live, we get around three to four feet of rain per year for free, and corn grows pretty well most years without artificial irrigation. It makes a lot more…

> Americans being Americans, we will spend everything we got and then some, to make sure that people can work from home in an uninhabitable unimaginably expensive desert rather than working from home in a nice easy place to live.

By my recent calculations, it is significantly cheaper to live in Arizona (my home state) than pretty much anywhere in California (a "nice place to live"). And yes, cost of living includes food.

Re: The Colorado River is shrinking

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i.e. taking shorter showers ain't gonna cut it

There was also a segment on water usage in Cowspiracy for California I think. Water usage in industry is massive. Individuals aren't to blame and shouldn't take any part of the burden. Similarily, CO2.

While the effect of residents is small, the usage of other sectors is, ultimately, in service of residents. People raise cattle in response to or anticipation of demand. Those cattle use more water than if we raised chickens or wheat for seitan. I consider it unlikely that a top down campaign to ration beef, in service of water usage, would succeed without a change in residential culture.

I am more apt to agree with Hank Green [0] that success in major social restructuring requires involvement at the individual level, too, because this encourages secondary behaviors that reinforce the restructuring. People who are voluntarily quitting hamburgers and steaks are more apt to write to their representatives or donate to NGOs that do in support of this issue, initially and to check in later on that promises are kept.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvAznN_MPWQ

As another example, Alec, who publishes youtube videos as _Technology Connections_, recently published a video about using his house as a thermal battery [1] so he can offset his energy use to night time, rather than running his AC at peak hours. He suggests that utilities involve residents to widen this strategy, in favor of brownouts or other centralized tools for shedding load in extreme circumstances. A policy solution that did not burden individuals with brownouts, ex by overprovisioning generation, would fall back on their shoulders in the form of higher utility rates. I allege the same would be the case for adverse climate change or overallocated water usage.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f9GpMWdvWI

Re: The Colorado River is shrinking

#175
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the number of people directly involved in production of alfalfa in the desert that would no longer have work if the alfalfa production in the desert stopped. Do these jobs absolutely 100% depend on alfalfa, or would they "pivot" to other crops? Is the "farming" sector in Utah that artificial that there is no other crop?

Change to “another crop” is like a farmer telling a software company built on Java to switch to a C++ stack because it’s just another language. There is crop specific knowledge that makes it not just planting something else. It’s also not just the knowledge and technology capital involved, like many startups here, it’s connection to markets that matter to produce income. Ag wise it’s not clear what other, lower water…

The more macro question is can enough alfalfa be grown elsewhere, in areas that don't need so much artifical irrigation, or is the Utah production required to meet demand?

Re: The Colorado River is shrinking

#176
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right... but if I understood the above, it's not the modern amenities using up the bulk of the water, it's the agriculture.

Because people don't really "use" water. When you flush the toilet or take a shower the water doesn't get destroyed. The vast majority of it gets treated and put back into the river. The water used in agriculture will mostly evaporate or become part of the plant. Little of it will make it back to the source.

Evaporated water eventually falls as rain, though probably somewhere else.

Re: The Colorado River is shrinking

#177
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Great Lakes Compact forbids that. As an agreement between states it went through US Congress, so theoretically an act of Congress could repeal or modify it. However this seems unlikely to me due to the Midwest's outsized political influence and how protective locals are of the lakes.

The Great Lakes Compact has a giant loophole you could drive a train full of water right through. You can export water out of the watershed in containers no larger than 5.7 gallons (~21.5 liters) Build a short loop of rail, half in the watershed and half out of it. Drive a train in a circle continuously. When you are inside the watershed, fill up the 5.7 gallon containers (just make it a continuous waterfall that you…

They could shoot you.

Re: The Colorado River is shrinking

#178

Approximately 27% of the water used in Utah comes from the Colorado River and 60% of Utahans benefit from the river. 82% of Utah water goes to farmers. Significant amounts of that water usage is to grow Cotton and Alfalfa. Two water intensive crops that are largely exported out of the country. In my opinion we have absolutely no business growing these crops in a desert, especially just to ship them out of the country…

>In my opinion we have absolutely no business growing these crops in a desert, You might as well just say people shouldn't be living in most of the western US then since a majority of it receives very little rainfall. It's very easy to call these people out when you're not directly affected. Yes just strip them of their major sources of income. No issue there.... You need a better plan than just telling the Governor…

The farming will stop, one way or another. That much is certain, since the river is drying up. Whether it will stop in time to prevent other issues is the question.

Re: The Colorado River is shrinking

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stopping water consumption is an inadequate solution to our three biggest water supply problems: 1. Desalination 2. Purification 3. Distribution There would be no shortage of fresh water on earth if we simply put resources into solving these three problems.

All of those things are likely to increase our global warming issues, as they are highly energy consuming in several ways. If we want any semblance of current society to keep chugging along 50-100 years from now, we need to reduce our production of almost everything, energy most of all. There is simply no other solution to stop catastrophic global warming.

I have to say it's vanishingly rare to see someone else advocate for net reduction in energy usage. In so many similar discussions it seems to be as much a taboo as topics like population control or not being able to freely buy tat products from china.

But it seems one way or the other these shifts are inevitable, either by choice or it left unaddressed the other way as a natural consequence and with much greater suffering. Same with water use in arid areas, it's either restricted today or ultimately gone tomorrow.

I guess the approach of burying our heads in the sand can be at least assured of an increasing sand supply to support it.

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