Anonymous & Lulz Security Statement to the FBI • Hacker News Board

Re: Anonymous & Lulz Security Statement to the FBI

#151

Post by scythe » Thu, Jul 21, 2011, 6:42 PM UTC

Shenglong wrote: post #132

scythe wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What liberties do you feel are at stake? Do you feel oppressed - that suddenly your rights may be taken away? Yes. Here, do you need examples? http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2011/07/a-pound-of-f... >Yet, they think they understand complex social initiatives because it's more 'down to earth'. To what precisely do you refer? Most people defer to someone who makes coherent arguments for their positions, rather…

I was pretty angry about the above case you pointed out as well, but I do not believe it is a general descriptor for the majority of incidents. In any case, I understand the point you're making, and appreciate the clarification. > In the end, the same way we choose who gets into the government in the first place -- popular opinion. This is not to say that popular opinion is always right, and in fact it is quite often…

>I do not believe it is a general descriptor for the majority of incidents.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_americans_1942

>it'll just be government 2.0.

Well, obviously. That's the point. Government 1.0 sucks.

>The point I really disagree with is: people are generally swayed by logic. That's not true. People are generally swayed by emotion

These are not mutually exclusive. In general, humans try to be consistent -- hence the rise of philosophy multiple independent times in multiple independent cultures.

Re: Anonymous & Lulz Security Statement to the FBI

#152

Post by mcantelon » Thu, Jul 21, 2011, 6:43 PM UTC

admiralpumpkin wrote: post #133

knieveltech wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few points to consider: 1. Last time I checked North Korea wasn't founded on a series of charter documents proclaiming freedom from opression being a foundational concept. 2. What other governments are doing has absolutely no bearing on the US government systematically dismantling it's citizens personal freedoms. 3. If you really think the US government at it's worst can't compare with various tin pot dictatorships…

1. Significance of your statement? Surely you're not saying that brutal dictatorships are fine so long as they're not ignoring earlier "charter documents"... We don't grade on a curve here. 2. The OP point was that on a 'relative badness' scale the US is better than other governments (see N Korea), so what other governments are doing is very relevant to their point. 3. Uh-huh. It's certainly enlightened of you not to…

>All countries and governments are dirty to some degree or other.

Other countries haven't positioned themselves as the world's policeman and moral authority (complete with a large network of military bases), AFAIK. If you set yourself up as a standard of freedom, then it's unsurprising that others will hold you to that standard.

Re: Anonymous & Lulz Security Statement to the FBI

#153

Post by mcantelon » Thu, Jul 21, 2011, 6:46 PM UTC

jxcole wrote: post #125

Why does Anonymous focus so much on attacking the US government (and related rich democratic countries) when it could instead be focused on fighting the governments that are actually oppressive? Nothing the US has ever done, even at it's most oppressive, could ever compare to what North Korea does to it's own citizen's on a regular basis. I would probably be much more sympathetic towards their cause if they focused m…

>Why does Anonymous focus so much on attacking the US government (and related rich democratic countries) when it could instead be focused on fighting the governments that are actually oppressive?

Why does the EFF focus on electronic communication rights rather than physical torture? Because it's a valid issue and they feel is worth the focus. If the abuses in North Korea are more important to you than the abuses of the self-appointed leader of the free world then go focus on North Korea.

Re: Anonymous & Lulz Security Statement to the FBI

#154

Post by fleitz » Thu, Jul 21, 2011, 6:49 PM UTC

jxcole wrote: post #125

Why does Anonymous focus so much on attacking the US government (and related rich democratic countries) when it could instead be focused on fighting the governments that are actually oppressive? Nothing the US has ever done, even at it's most oppressive, could ever compare to what North Korea does to it's own citizen's on a regular basis. I would probably be much more sympathetic towards their cause if they focused m…

Exposing DPRK as corrupt and inhuman would not surprise anyone, nor would it change anything. Short of going to war with the DPRK (we already tried this once) nothing is going to change. Wikileaks/Anon/Lulzsec will have no effect on the DPRK.

Wikileaks/Anon/Lulzsec has a huge effect on our government(s) because they can be removed and rely on a lot of soft power. If we can't get our governments to care about human rights what chance is there to get the DPRK to change?

Re: Anonymous & Lulz Security Statement to the FBI

#155

Post by jackpirate » Thu, Jul 21, 2011, 6:55 PM UTC

nathanb wrote: post #71

"it's entirely unacceptable to break into websites and commit unlawful acts" This is quite the hypocritical statement coming from the FBI. As far as I can tell, the only difference between Anonymous, Lulzsec, and the FBI is that the FBI act by executive fiat. I don't support Internet vigilanteism, but I also don't support the concept of the FBI as an untouchable force who are no longer held accountable by the public…

Unfortunately, their definition of "lawful" is that the FBI is doing it.

That said, I wouldn't go so far as to call this hypocritical. The FBI at least pretends to have a morally reasonable agenda for its actions.

Re: Anonymous & Lulz Security Statement to the FBI

#156

Post by scythe » Thu, Jul 21, 2011, 6:57 PM UTC

jxcole wrote: post #125

Why does Anonymous focus so much on attacking the US government (and related rich democratic countries) when it could instead be focused on fighting the governments that are actually oppressive? Nothing the US has ever done, even at it's most oppressive, could ever compare to what North Korea does to it's own citizen's on a regular basis. I would probably be much more sympathetic towards their cause if they focused m…

>Are they really doing this for the good of mankind or are they just trying to get attention?

They're, presumably, trying to get attention for the good of mankind. "Get attention" is literally the only [1] useful thing Anonymous is actually capable of doing, remember -- they can release documents to bring them to people's attention, make statements to influence people's opinion, etc. There is no need to inform people that the government of North Korea is corrupt, because everyone already knows it's corrupt. It'd be like informing people that oxygen is a really nice thing to breathe.

The prospect for literally "attacking" most organizations is kind of weak. Most of the corrupt governments in the world aren't very technologically advanced, so disrupting their computer systems wouldn't do much good. I'm sure Anonymous would love to go after Blackwater, I [and probably they] just have no idea how Anonymous could go after Blackwater.

[1] -- okay, not only. The alternative is interfering with military systems resp. affecting a war, but this is far more difficult, dangerous, and just generally a bad thing.

>I read somewhere that an Anonymous hacker used to fight oppressive governments in Africa. Why did he stop?

I don't think he stopped. He just isn't getting press coverage at the moment.

Re: Anonymous & Lulz Security Statement to the FBI

#157

Post by jackpirate » Thu, Jul 21, 2011, 6:59 PM UTC

fleitz wrote: post #154

jxcole wrote: post #125

Why does Anonymous focus so much on attacking the US government (and related rich democratic countries) when it could instead be focused on fighting the governments that are actually oppressive? Nothing the US has ever done, even at it's most oppressive, could ever compare to what North Korea does to it's own citizen's on a regular basis. I would probably be much more sympathetic towards their cause if they focused m…

Exposing DPRK as corrupt and inhuman would not surprise anyone, nor would it change anything. Short of going to war with the DPRK (we already tried this once) nothing is going to change. Wikileaks/Anon/Lulzsec will have no effect on the DPRK. Wikileaks/Anon/Lulzsec has a huge effect on our government(s) because they can be removed and rely on a lot of soft power. If we can't get our governments to care about human ri…

Wikileaks/Anon/Lulzsec will have no effect on the DPRK.

I think they would actually have a very detrimental effect. In the US, we routinely blame the governments of China and Russia for hacks that could easily be perpetuated by high schoolers who live there. No doubt, DPRK would blame our official institutions, giving them much more legitimacy (at least internally, but probably internationally too) when they claim that the world is out to get them.

Re: Anonymous & Lulz Security Statement to the FBI

#158

Post by fleitz » Thu, Jul 21, 2011, 7:04 PM UTC

jackpirate wrote: post #157

fleitz wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exposing DPRK as corrupt and inhuman would not surprise anyone, nor would it change anything. Short of going to war with the DPRK (we already tried this once) nothing is going to change. Wikileaks/Anon/Lulzsec will have no effect on the DPRK. Wikileaks/Anon/Lulzsec has a huge effect on our government(s) because they can be removed and rely on a lot of soft power. If we can't get our governments to care about human ri…

Wikileaks/Anon/Lulzsec will have no effect on the DPRK. I think they would actually have a very detrimental effect. In the US, we routinely blame the governments of China and Russia for hacks that could easily be perpetuated by high schoolers who live there. No doubt, DPRK would blame our official institutions, giving them much more legitimacy (at least internally, but probably internationally too) when they claim th…

The world IS out to get the DPRK. They just propose different reasons then we do, apparently we don't like their freedoms and are terrified of the Juche idea. We say we don't like them because they execute minors, the mentally retarded, start wars, proliferate nuclear weapons, maintain torture camps, and jail large amounts of their populations for personal choice issues, and refuse to sign simple treaties like land mine bans.

I'm not saying the DPRK is good, I don't think they are. Just remember that gov't will give you whatever reasons you need to support whatever they want to do no matter how silly or tenuous the connection is.

Re: Anonymous & Lulz Security Statement to the FBI

#159

Post by jeremyarussell » Thu, Jul 21, 2011, 7:04 PM UTC

jxcole wrote: post #125

Why does Anonymous focus so much on attacking the US government (and related rich democratic countries) when it could instead be focused on fighting the governments that are actually oppressive? Nothing the US has ever done, even at it's most oppressive, could ever compare to what North Korea does to it's own citizen's on a regular basis. I would probably be much more sympathetic towards their cause if they focused m…

Well lets be frank here. Yes, other governments are worse then our own (US) government. Yes, the governments dealings generally negatively effect much less of the US population then most really realize. That all said, the United States of America is supposed to be the best, most fair, most democratic and most self governed (by the people.) This just isn't the case anymore, what with the massive amount of people we have compared to what we had when the founding fathers first drafted our governing systems, the ridiculously up and down economic situations we seem to get ourselves into (by the way this ones just as much the people's fault as the governments. If you don't believe me start spending your money better and you soon realize life isn't that hard on a low income.) and our biggest fault of all, arrogance in thinking we have it right and trying to enforce our democratic ways(that obviously aren't working.) on other people, wasting valuable money and resources we could be using for say, better education, better public transport or maybe even leveraging technology to alleviate common problems. (that's an entirely different subject I won't get into.)

In Summary, we (the American government and people to an extent) think we are better, our hubris is our downfall and we use the excuse of we aren't as bad as A to justify an act of B. Sure North Korea's government is straight up tyrannical, but we aren't the best, if we were this wouldn't be happening.

Re: Anonymous & Lulz Security Statement to the FBI

#160

Post by tshs33 » Thu, Jul 21, 2011, 7:05 PM UTC

rdtsc wrote: post #142

jxcole wrote: post #125

Why does Anonymous focus so much on attacking the US government (and related rich democratic countries) when it could instead be focused on fighting the governments that are actually oppressive? Nothing the US has ever done, even at it's most oppressive, could ever compare to what North Korea does to it's own citizen's on a regular basis. I would probably be much more sympathetic towards their cause if they focused m…

> Why does Anonymous focus so much on attacking the US government ... when it could instead be focused on fighting the governments that are actually oppressive? You probably didn't, but I think many people will see an obvious contradiction in that statement. > Nothing the US has ever done, even at it's most oppressive However North Korea is not advertising itself around the world and taken seriously as a bastion of f…

Reading your comment is just depressing and is a prime example of the Dunning Kruger effect. I have a PhD in economics. No other country has been responsible for lifting more people out of poverty than the U.S. For instance, China and India are eradicating poverty at record levels because of the open borders for trade with the U.S. The Four Asian Tigers became developed nations primarily through trade with the U.S. Iraq is seeing rapid growth rates in its GDP, as its own government openly embraces us and wants our troops there to stablize its country, so they can safely build its country. And guess what? It's working. Iraq's death rates are tumbling, and now it's even lower than ours. I wish you would rely on actual data and facts for your responses.