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Anonymous & Lulz Security Statement to the FBI

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Re: Anonymous & Lulz Security Statement to the FBI

#131

Post by thaumaturgy »

jxcole wrote: post #125

Why does Anonymous focus so much on attacking the US government (and related rich democratic countries) when it could instead be focused on fighting the governments that are actually oppressive? Nothing the US has ever done, even at it's most oppressive, could ever compare to what North Korea does to it's own citizen's on a regular basis. I would probably be much more sympathetic towards their cause if they focused m…

So, as long as there is some other country in the world that is more oppressive than the U.S., we shouldn't be addressing our own issues at home?

That's not a good recipe.

Re: Anonymous & Lulz Security Statement to the FBI

#132

Post by Shenglong »

scythe wrote: post #120
Shenglong wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Really? Make that one person, but there are surely more. What liberties do you feel are at stake? Do you feel oppressed - that suddenly your rights may be taken away? Could you expand? I currently have no idea why you would feel this way. > Who are a bunch of flawed humans to judge anything? Physics operates on a totally open system of merit. Economics as well. Doctors are directly responsible to reality. These are…

>What liberties do you feel are at stake? Do you feel oppressed - that suddenly your rights may be taken away? Yes. Here, do you need examples? http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2011/07/a-pound-of-f... >Yet, they think they understand complex social initiatives because it's more 'down to earth'. To what precisely do you refer? Most people defer to someone who makes coherent arguments for their positions, rather…

I was pretty angry about the above case you pointed out as well, but I do not believe it is a general descriptor for the majority of incidents. In any case, I understand the point you're making, and appreciate the clarification.

> In the end, the same way we choose who gets into the government in the first place -- popular opinion. This is not to say that popular opinion is always right, and in fact it is quite often wrong, but people are generally swayed by logic, and it just so happens that things which are close to the truth tend to be more convincing that utter lies. The responsibility of the government to popular opinion is the foundation of any democracy.

If we're using popular opinion, then I feel it'll just be government 2.0.

The point I really disagree with is: people are generally swayed by logic. That's not true. People are generally swayed by emotion - and there's a clear distinction. The best example of this is in hypnosis, where hypnotists induce a change in emotional state in order to break down barriers.

In any case, thanks for the discussion - it's made me consider some new views.

Re: Anonymous & Lulz Security Statement to the FBI

#133

Post by admiralpumpkin »

knieveltech wrote: post #130
jxcole wrote: post #125

Why does Anonymous focus so much on attacking the US government (and related rich democratic countries) when it could instead be focused on fighting the governments that are actually oppressive? Nothing the US has ever done, even at it's most oppressive, could ever compare to what North Korea does to it's own citizen's on a regular basis. I would probably be much more sympathetic towards their cause if they focused m…

A few points to consider: 1. Last time I checked North Korea wasn't founded on a series of charter documents proclaiming freedom from opression being a foundational concept. 2. What other governments are doing has absolutely no bearing on the US government systematically dismantling it's citizens personal freedoms. 3. If you really think the US government at it's worst can't compare with various tin pot dictatorships…

1. Significance of your statement? Surely you're not saying that brutal dictatorships are fine so long as they're not ignoring earlier "charter documents"... We don't grade on a curve here.

2. The OP point was that on a 'relative badness' scale the US is better than other governments (see N Korea), so what other governments are doing is very relevant to their point.

3. Uh-huh. It's certainly enlightened of you not to believe patriotically that the US is perfect, but let's be realistic here--anything that US has done other countries have done too. It's fine (in fact it's necessary) to point out how the US is more dirty that commonly assumed, but the proper extension of that realization isn't that every other country/government must be cleaner than we presume them to be. All countries and governments are dirty to some degree or other. The relative rule of law and openness of US society means that our dirtiness eventually becomes public; the same in not true elsewhere.

Re: Anonymous & Lulz Security Statement to the FBI

#134

Post by burgerbrain »

18pfsmt wrote: post #127
gdcbyers wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please clarify this statement. Are you suggesting that my distain for LulzSec and its methods are some how the result of brain washing or extreme trama? And if "We the people" are the Sheriff in this little Robin Hood adventure, who are the poor villagers Robin is trying to help? What a ridiculous reply. Or are we just naming random psychological phenomenon? If thats the case, I choose http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gr…

My attempt at understanding burgerbrain's comment leads me to believe that "we the people" are the victims, and our kidnappers are the government and corporate super powers operating via government action to provide legitimacy. While the Antisec people are trying to save us. I'm not saying I agree, but that's my interpretation.

Your interpretation is accurate.

Think about it, how many people in this world have actually signed up to be dominated by their government? Very very few (immigrants might count). Yet we don't question their authority because 1) we are used to it, and 2) every few years, they ask our opinion. Of course they know that they can safely ask our opinion because they know that we've already bought into the entire thing. It's like Patty Hearst participating in robberies. We mistakenly think that they protect us when in reality they are just exploiting us.

Re: Anonymous & Lulz Security Statement to the FBI

#135

Post by ebaysucks »

jxcole wrote: post #125

Why does Anonymous focus so much on attacking the US government (and related rich democratic countries) when it could instead be focused on fighting the governments that are actually oppressive? Nothing the US has ever done, even at it's most oppressive, could ever compare to what North Korea does to it's own citizen's on a regular basis. I would probably be much more sympathetic towards their cause if they focused m…

I see LulzSec and Anonymous more as fighting the concept of the super states as we see them today rather than a specific government in general.

By attacking the US they are attacking the instance which is most familiar / easiest / offers biggest impact, but not necessarily claiming the agency they attack is the worst in the world, ever.

Re: Anonymous & Lulz Security Statement to the FBI

#136

Post by ebaysucks »

ditojim wrote: post #123
ddw wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if Lulzsec gets some of your data, they aren't going to create a huge database of it. The FBI on the other hand...

but the internet is one huge database, and that is where their info is released.

Better a decentralized police state than a centralized one.

In fact, a decentralized police state is exactly the only thing a centralized police state has to fear.

E.g. see the laws making it illegal to film police in public.

Re: Anonymous & Lulz Security Statement to the FBI

#137

Post by innes »

mquander wrote: post #129
jxcole wrote: post #125

Why does Anonymous focus so much on attacking the US government (and related rich democratic countries) when it could instead be focused on fighting the governments that are actually oppressive? Nothing the US has ever done, even at it's most oppressive, could ever compare to what North Korea does to it's own citizen's on a regular basis. I would probably be much more sympathetic towards their cause if they focused m…

Does it really come as a shock that people prefer to protest the powers that are oppressing them and their friends, rather than the powers that are oppressing someone else on the other side of the planet?

No, the problem of misdirected anger is unsurprising.

And it's especially predictable with groups such as Anonymous who in their writings come off as pompous, childish, self-centred, and self-aggrandizing. Not the kind of traits that correlate with empathising with people on the other side of the planet.

Their strategy (setting aside the more base stuff that is just bullying and focussing on their attempts to appear principled and 'crusading') seems to be to latch on to easy populist targets in order to win others approval. Their politics are those of angry teenagers who've read enough Chomsky or Klein to get all riled up.

Re: Anonymous & Lulz Security Statement to the FBI

#138

Post by Terretta »

admiralpumpkin wrote: post #133
knieveltech wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few points to consider: 1. Last time I checked North Korea wasn't founded on a series of charter documents proclaiming freedom from opression being a foundational concept. 2. What other governments are doing has absolutely no bearing on the US government systematically dismantling it's citizens personal freedoms. 3. If you really think the US government at it's worst can't compare with various tin pot dictatorships…

1. Significance of your statement? Surely you're not saying that brutal dictatorships are fine so long as they're not ignoring earlier "charter documents"... We don't grade on a curve here. 2. The OP point was that on a 'relative badness' scale the US is better than other governments (see N Korea), so what other governments are doing is very relevant to their point. 3. Uh-huh. It's certainly enlightened of you not to…

> anything that US has done other countries have done too

So that's okay, then.

Re: Anonymous & Lulz Security Statement to the FBI

#139

Post by dlikhten »

innes wrote: post #137
mquander wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it really come as a shock that people prefer to protest the powers that are oppressing them and their friends, rather than the powers that are oppressing someone else on the other side of the planet?

No, the problem of misdirected anger is unsurprising. And it's especially predictable with groups such as Anonymous who in their writings come off as pompous, childish, self-centred, and self-aggrandizing. Not the kind of traits that correlate with empathising with people on the other side of the planet. Their strategy (setting aside the more base stuff that is just bullying and focussing on their attempts to appear…

This is all well and good, but in reality the phrase "fix your own house before fixing someone else's" applies. If we can't have a good and fair government by the definition of the people, then can we really expect to fix other governments? Do we bring our own government in like we did with Afghanistan and Iraq and royally fuck up a country (not to say that those countries were in good shape in any way, nor to say we could fix them, they are pretty much dictated by oil as there have few other natural resources they can export)

I like to think if we had a good government that we can truly trust, then we can trust it to step out and assist worldwide injustices: land aid to the people fighting an oppressive government, enable communication between the oppressed, prevent the oppressive government from buying weapons, etc.

Re: Anonymous & Lulz Security Statement to the FBI

#140

Post by loki99 »

jxcole wrote: post #125

Why does Anonymous focus so much on attacking the US government (and related rich democratic countries) when it could instead be focused on fighting the governments that are actually oppressive? Nothing the US has ever done, even at it's most oppressive, could ever compare to what North Korea does to it's own citizen's on a regular basis. I would probably be much more sympathetic towards their cause if they focused m…

Everyone, except the North Korean people, has easy access to information about the North Korean goverment and their missdeeds but secret infos about the US goverment or global corps doesn't get mentioned in main stream medias. And these have definately a lot more influence on all of our lifes than the Nort Korean goverment.
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