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EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

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Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#331

Post by sgift »

Pick-A-Hill2019 wrote: post #320
sgift wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The governments are putting more and more strict regulations in place for last decades and they often don't care what the society thinks about those. Society votes for these governments. I know, we all would prefer to argue that some shadow cabal decides what the government does and society has nothing to do with it, but at the end of the day it still stands: We vote for these people. We get the government we deser…

"We get the governement we deserve" How often have politicians of all countries said and promised to enact or revoke certain policies during their election campaign and then developed amnesia, stalled until outrage dies down or simply shrug until re-election time? People don't always get the government they deserve.

The greatest ability of democracies is error correction. Politicians lied in the election campaign? Vote for someone else next time. All current politicians lie? Be a politician. That's not easy, but it is possible. I stand by my assertion: We get the government we deserve.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#332

Post by krageon »

valdiorn wrote: post #322
ulzeraj wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me tell you in an unfiltered way that this is bullshit. I don't care about language. Downvote me or report this if you like but this is literally the kind of bullshit that makes the world a terrible place. Big money laundering and state wide unethical operations always find a way to operate on the clear financial system. You are probably using some shinny brand device bought from a famous company that contains pa…

this is woefully inaccurate. Like, seriously wrong. parent comment was on point. I can tell you, as someone who works in finance, that KYC rules are taken very, very seriously. The bigger the client, the more important they become. There is harsh punishment from both my company if not the government if KYC processes aren't followed correctly. Losing your job is the least of your worries if you're complicit in a case…

> as someone who works in finance

It's big of you to admit, but you'll pardon me if I take what you say with a grain of salt when you tell me the extremely problematic industry you work in definitely is not a problem. You have a vested interest to believe this.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#333

Post by astoor »

max_ wrote: post #228
d--b wrote: post #141

I’m amazed by how short sighted most of the comments here are. When it comes to large financial operations, society has clearly chosen transparency over privacy. Cause guess what, tax evasion, money laundering, political fixing, terrorism financing are things that exist and really are hurtful to our economies. Stop fantasizing that the government cares about the shit you buy. This is not about you. And Bitcoin’s anon…

Bitcoin's goal was to help people "get out" of the traditional financial system "not inside it". Everyone knows where the real money laundering and terrorist financing happens. It is done by the likes of HSBC, Standard Chartered and other big banks. This is public knowledge, as we have seen with the Panama papers and most recently the FinCen files. Our financial institutions are too rotten for you to even assume that…

The problem is, if you build a new financial system which facilitates criminal activity such as scams, fraud, extortion, money laundering, tax evasion, terrorist financing, etc., it very quickly gets dominated by the types of people who want to perform such activity, or end up performing such activity ("opportunity makes a thief"). So the options are either to become more and more attractive to criminals and help build up their strength so they can take on the traditional financial system more effectively, or to become more like the traditional financial system and try to stamp out such activity. Personally, and I think most rational people would agree, it would be better for society as a whole if we didn't let the scammers, fraudsters, extortionists etc. win. And I know the typical cryptocurrency supporter's response is going to be "well banks and governments are scammers, fraudsters etc.", but while banks and governments may not have a completely spotless record, the fact is that they are on the whole infinitely more trustworthy than the tiny number of unelected and largely anonymous people who own almost all the cryptocurrency wealth.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#334

Post by krageon »

sgift wrote: post #276
realcertify wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue with "society has clearly chosen" statement. The governments are putting more and more strict regulations in place for last decades and they often don't care what the society thinks about those. There used to be a time not long ago when one could show up in bank with a bunch of cash and it would be of no issue. I don't think that terrorism was less important back then.

> The governments are putting more and more strict regulations in place for last decades and they often don't care what the society thinks about those. Society votes for these governments. I know, we all would prefer to argue that some shadow cabal decides what the government does and society has nothing to do with it, but at the end of the day it still stands: We vote for these people. We get the government we deser…

> Society votes for these governments.

It is better to say that society votes. It definitely does, but when every (and I do mean every) politician that gets in power can come right out and say that they won't do anything they promised it is not reasonable to say society voted for the governments they get. Society has governments and society votes, these two are unconnected facts because of an endemic and deeply toxic lack of accountability on the part of politicians. The lies are blatant, so much so that everyone expects them and sees them coming.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#335

Post by krageon »

sgift wrote: post #331
Pick-A-Hill2019 wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We get the governement we deserve" How often have politicians of all countries said and promised to enact or revoke certain policies during their election campaign and then developed amnesia, stalled until outrage dies down or simply shrug until re-election time? People don't always get the government they deserve.

The greatest ability of democracies is error correction. Politicians lied in the election campaign? Vote for someone else next time. All current politicians lie? Be a politician. That's not easy , but it is possible . I stand by my assertion: We get the government we deserve.

> Be a politician

The point of a system that has large financial and societal pressure at the top to conform to the wishes of specific lobbying interests is that the pressure is so large you either stop being a politician or do what they say. There is no middle ground.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#336

Post by forty »

novok wrote: post #282
forty wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely, state trust is obviously a cultural thing and probably depends a lot on your current and past relationships with the state. And yes I trust state were I live. When I compare to the US, one explanation is that in my country, the state pays for security, health and education for example, so it's a win-win relationship (I pay quite a lot of taxes now, but given my family history, I would probably be hard wor…

No it doesn't work that way, because a re-monetization takes a long time and a lot of resources. Why re-monetize when you can use the system already in place? In Iran, cash still worked and people used it to get smuggled out of the country, even when you were given 5 minutes to get out of your house and see it burn in front of your eyes, or neighbors would steal everything without consequence because you were now par…

Of course any state can go bad. It's the collective duty of the citizens to make sure that doesn't happen.

I'd be curious to know how cash helps people in china for example. Is it common to have people flee the country with bags of cash? Are there things that you can only buy with cash in order to avoid problems with authorities?

My point is: nowadays, do they need to monitor every financial transactions to be able to control everything you do? If they can know everything you do anyway, what is cash protecting you from?

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#337

Post by momirlan »

roenxi wrote: post #313
qeternity wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everyone knows where the real money laundering and terrorist financing happens. > It is done by the likes of HSBC, Standard Chartered and other big banks. This used to be the case. And undoubtedly it still goes on. There simply weren’t many other mechanisms to launder money that didn’t involve large banks…until crypto joined the party. Crypto’s most popular feature is speculation, and its second most popular featur…

There are some things the government can't realistically do. Like taxing oxygen consumption or preventing people thinking things. Or how they have been totally unable to stop tax evasion for thousands of years. I'd be more than happy if controlling capital joined the list of things government just can't do. I think freely flowing capital is going to be good for everyone. Good luck to the crypto community & I'm sure a…

> There are some things the government can't realistically do. Like taxing oxygen consumption or preventing people thinking things.

Ya think ? People are indoctrinated from as soon as they start school. By the time they reach adulthood they are fully institutionalized.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#338

Post by qeternity »

roenxi wrote: post #313
qeternity wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everyone knows where the real money laundering and terrorist financing happens. > It is done by the likes of HSBC, Standard Chartered and other big banks. This used to be the case. And undoubtedly it still goes on. There simply weren’t many other mechanisms to launder money that didn’t involve large banks…until crypto joined the party. Crypto’s most popular feature is speculation, and its second most popular featur…

There are some things the government can't realistically do. Like taxing oxygen consumption or preventing people thinking things. Or how they have been totally unable to stop tax evasion for thousands of years. I'd be more than happy if controlling capital joined the list of things government just can't do. I think freely flowing capital is going to be good for everyone. Good luck to the crypto community & I'm sure a…

> I'm sure a big chunk of the world trying to get away from unreasonable US sanctions will agree

You might not agree with every use of US financial might, but I do not think that a “big chunk” of the world are affected by US sanctions or that a big chunk disagree with US sanctions that exist. Most of these sanctions are against demonstrably hostile governments. The US isn’t perfect by any means, but cutting off NK, Iran, etc from international banking to extract nuclear compliance is, I think, a good use of sanctions.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#339

Post by read_if_gay_ »

rad_gruchalski wrote: post #306
read_if_gay_ wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So where are the consequences?

What do you expect? That I google this for you? Here’s an example: https://www.investopedia.com/stock-analysis/2013/investing-n... It’s all public knowledge and pretty easy to find.

> Given the bank's size, it appears that it and some of its peers are too big to jail because they are too big to fail.

Instead they got fined for less than 0.1% of their total holdings.

The system doesn’t work. This is not a consequence.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#340

Post by forty »

gambiting wrote: post #302
forty wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why someone downvoted that. In France it's limited to 1000€ currently. https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F10999

On that page that you linked it literally says: "The payment in cash between individuals (purchase of a car or a painting for example) is not limited. A writing is necessary beyond 1,500 € to prove the payments ." In fact, even below it, where it mentions the 1000 euro limit for professional transactions: "Note: this limit does not apply to people who have no other means of payment or no deposit account."

Yes there are exceptions, but the general rule is that payment in cash are limited in amount. I was just illustrating parents comments that having cash payments limited in amount is not science fiction.
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