My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown • Hacker News Board

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#511

Post by bencollier49 » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 7:44 AM UTC

bobthechef wrote: post #386

bencollier49 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "Dark Night" is typically attributed to St. John of the Cross, although I'd be willing to believe that the term has been used in other traditions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Night_of_the_Soul Ah, note the last paragraph in this article: 'In modern mindfulness practice, many authors have named a similar phenomenon in meditation as the dark night of the soul after the poem. It is often described as a length…

I would be very careful in comparing what St. John means and what is meant in the Buddhist sense. See [0] for those interested in a brief comparison. Selected quotes: "The ultimate end of man for Christians is union with God, while for Buddhists it is Nirvana (complete detachment, or a state of nothingness)." "For Buddhists, salvation is a privation of individual consciousness; for Catholics salvation is an eternally…

I'm inclined to agree with you. The comparison being made between the two states seems almost like a way for this particular Buddhist to cast shade on the Christian mystical tradition. "Oh yes, we know about that; that's when you're not doing it properly".

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

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Post by id02009 » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 7:51 AM UTC

My teacher describes this issue as such: meditation is like going to the gym. You don't send someone with broken arm to the gym to make them better. Even though gyms are generally good, they should be avoided when you're injured.

Psychotic or neurotic mind needs healing, not intense training. This knowledge is present in genuine Buddhist schools that are not for profit organizations. The mindfulness industry have, sadly, the wrong incentives.

As a Buddhist myself I hope this article helps a lot of people.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

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Post by coffeecat » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 8:42 AM UTC

gonehome wrote: post #445

avalys wrote: post #387

This thread is blowing my mind, although not for the obvious reason. I’m just astounded by all the anecdotes people are mentioning here that suggest meditation, mindfulness, etc. actually work , even the secularized, distorted, popularized versions we get here in the West. Previously I just assumed this was all a bunch of wackadoo woo-woo bullshit designed to separate dissatisfied California yuppies from their money.…

There's decent empirical evidence of an effect. It's not a huge surprise when you think about it - therapy works because of helping people change how they think. The reason it's often dismissed by skeptics is because it's often surrounded by a lot of religious woo and other nonsense so people often dismiss the entire thing. I have a pet hypothesis that it can make anxiety worse if you're not careful due to Hypervigil…

I think you're on to something!

Personally, after a short amount of mindfulness meditation (perhaps about 10 hours cumulatively; never more than 30 minutes per day), I began to struggle with uncontrollable awareness of bodily sensations. My consciousness would gravitate uncontrollably toward a certain bodily sensation, and I became unable to decouple my consciousness from the sensation. The harder I'd try to focus on something and ignore the sensation, the more intense the sensation would become. This would culminate in a panic attack.

The issue mostly subsided after a month or two, but it never fully went away. I've become convinced that mindfulness meditation is precisely the opposite of what an anxious, inwardly-focused person needs. If there were a way to train the mind to selectively attenuate information/signals, on the other hand, that would be very helpful.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

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Post by krageon » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 10:04 AM UTC

Aerroon wrote: post #501

krageon wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I had never even imagined that meditation could be so distressing. It was not evident to you that taking some time to be alone with yourself could be uncomfortable? It's almost a polar opposite to how most people live their lives. I am genuinely curious what made you believe otherwise - I cannot imagine it.

Why would it? You're stuck with yourself every waking moment. Every evening when you go to sleep you're trying to do 'nothing' where any random idea can pop into your head. Every morning you wake up and start out with your own thoughts. Are those times uncomfortable and distressing? Every time I take a walk I'm stuck in my head too.

Most people I've met (perhaps this is a cultural thing) spend most of their waking life trying to stave off "boredom" (using phones, books, trying to mentally distract themselves towards specific things), which as far as I can tell now means "I'm alone with my own thoughts and nothing to distract me".

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

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Post by _y5hn » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 10:41 AM UTC

gameshot911 wrote: post #489

cyberpunk wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crazy. Agree with everything, although I would say at least in Soto 45 mins seems to be the maximum for one period during sessin, and 15 of that will be kinhin (walking meditation), I tend to do about an hour a day in two sessions, but any longer and there isn’t really any reward. Drugs are a hard no, I mean do them all you want but don’t combine the two.

>Drugs are a hard no, I mean do them all you want but don’t combine the two. Why not?

The point is to stabilize and calm the body-mind-spirit complex, a harmony which is called yoga.

Taking drugs, even alchohol, stresses the body and mind, and may distort and cloud the spirit. This work against yoga / equanimity / clarity.

There are traditions that uses drugs ritually, so is part of those traditions. Though, it is often a more perilous and dedicated path. Not everyone needs to live life as a sage or munk.

So doing sadhana (practices) will work over time. It's not a competition.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

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Post by denton-scratch » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 10:43 AM UTC

rtikulit wrote: post #485

eurasiantiger wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> aren't you supposed to have a master, when you're working with koans? Buddha is my master, teacher and guide, etc. This is all sorts of hilarious from a Zen perspective; interpreting Tathagatagarbha as monism, or Buddha as anything, heh.

“A teacher when one is required, no teacher when one is not required,“ or something like that. :) The Buddha is an existence proof of the possibility of direct independent observation and understanding.

A unique point of evidence, 3,500 years old. Not really "proof" of anything.

And as a teacher, The Buddha has certain limitations - like when you ask him "I'm having problems - am I doing this right?" - answer came there none.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

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Post by beaconstudios » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 10:51 AM UTC

kirse wrote: post #499

beaconstudios wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the Soto style of zazen meditation is about emptying the mind though. I think the parent misunderstands meditation though - it's not an empty practice for the self-absorbed; it's only been repackaged that way as mindfulness.

The parent definitely does not misunderstand meditation, and is quite aware that there are two primary types - focused-attention and open-awareness - the latter of which is generally what gets packaged as mindfulness meditation these days. In fact, the parent has zero interest in becoming a fully detached and non-judgmental blob of cells regarding his thoughts, feelings, and sensations that are part of his unique hum…

It's a very common misunderstanding to believe that the Buddhist ideal is nihilism. The point is actually to become fully present in the world; the "attachment" you're supposed to let go of is your desire for things to be different from how they are, in the same way stoics say to let go of things you cannot control.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

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Post by beaconstudios » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 10:52 AM UTC

dingleberry41 wrote: post #488

beaconstudios wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the West has its own spiritual traditions, that the type of people who meditation is pitched towards have completely abandoned. Mindfulness and such are spiritual practices stripped of their philosophical roots and repackaged in a consumable form. If SE Asian companies were selling the Lord's Prayer as a quick de-stressing technique for busy atheist office workers, I'd say they were missing the point too.

Would that make the Lord's Prayer twice repackaged (or re-gifted if you will) since it's a middle eastern practice already packaged as a consumable for the West?

No it wouldn't. There's a difference between a religion spreading, and taking the bits you like and secularising them like it's some kind of feel good buffet.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

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Post by astrange » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 11:11 AM UTC

beaconstudios wrote: post #433

stjohnswarts wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love how when the west gets something and does its own interpretation that it's "watered" down as if the west can do nothing right and we're all spiritually and morally bankrupt idiots.

the West has its own spiritual traditions, that the type of people who meditation is pitched towards have completely abandoned. Mindfulness and such are spiritual practices stripped of their philosophical roots and repackaged in a consumable form. If SE Asian companies were selling the Lord's Prayer as a quick de-stressing technique for busy atheist office workers, I'd say they were missing the point too.

Japan does sell churches as nothing more than a backdrop to get married in.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

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Post by astrange » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 11:22 AM UTC

hunter-gatherer wrote: post #454

Wow. Like a few others have commented, I'm surprised to see the amount of positive associations people have had with meditation. I'll admit, I definitely never thought the benefits of meditation were anything more than the placebo effect, though I've also never had reason to give meditation any real thought as a solution to my problems, because I've fortunately always been able to cope and function through them to fi…

I don't understand why people would think meditation does nothing. Your brain is connected to the rest of you and reducing stress is good for it even if that's all you believe you can learn to do.

But otherwise, paying attention to things is a skill that can be exercised just like muscles are.