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My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

danlawton.substack.com

481–490 of 600 posts

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#481
> In fact, today mindfulness meditation is primarily used as an off-label treatment for mental health issues

I think this perhaps goes too far; MBSR is pretty well documented and is not “off label” — I’m fairly sure there are FDA approved apps for mindfulness therapy for example. If you are meditating 30 mins a day and it’s helping your symptoms, I don’t think this report should be justification for you to stop.

This is not MBSR. If you are going for Jhana, you are way off piste from the “mindfulness meditation” path. The authors retreat was full-day meditation for many days in a row.

This is the DMT of mind altering substances, where light mindfulness meditation could be compared to a glass of wine.

I do strongly agree with the authors point that the western conception of meditation omits the scary/mind-altering stuff that can happen when you go deep, and it’s important to have a full picture of the risks and benefits before you embark on that path. I just worry that this sort of article without appropriate caveats might make people unjustifiably scared of light meditation, which as far as I’ve seen doesn’t result in this kind of dramatic reaction and does have clear benefits.

I’d recommend “Mastering the core teachings of the Buddha” for a no-BS deep dive on what going deep looks like. Particularly the section on “the dark night of the soul”.

https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-iv-insight...

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#482
post #387

This thread is blowing my mind, although not for the obvious reason. I’m just astounded by all the anecdotes people are mentioning here that suggest meditation, mindfulness, etc. actually work , even the secularized, distorted, popularized versions we get here in the West. Previously I just assumed this was all a bunch of wackadoo woo-woo bullshit designed to separate dissatisfied California yuppies from their money.…

People have been meditating/praying/whatever for thousands of years, so it is probably helping people some how.

Most of the day I working, and after that running around getting dinner, doing chores and running errands. Even if I am playing a video game I am making an effort to something. Even reading or watching a movie I am working to concentrate , watch and understand.

If I go to a quiet, comfortable place and just relax for a few minutes, my brain goes from a harried state of going from one task to another to one where it can just relax.

I suppose woo-woo can surround it. Maybe once a month I think to meditate, although in the past I have done it more.

For myself, meditating tends to relax me if I have had a harrying, stressful day. It decreases my anxiety. It has never caused an anxiety attack or the like.

If I sat down to meditate for some time, and became aware that I was very anxious, I would not think I was anxious due to meditating, as what is anxiety creating about sitting down and doing nothing (unless you have something urgent to do - then you just don't sit down and meditate)? My perception would probably be that I was already existing in a state of anxiety much of the time, and did not think about it much of the time due to the quotidian tasks that were to be performed, but now that those were not around, I could finally be made aware of the mental state I am in and do not have to push aside for something else. Perhaps a sensory deprivation tank can cause reactions in emotionally stable people, but I don't see how meditating for a few minutes/hours can. In a non meditative way I suppose logical self-reflection can be initially unpleasant for some people, meditating in a way is self-reflection on one's current natural emotional state when quotidian distractions are pushed aside, and I suppose some people who have had "bouts of mild anxiety and depression" might "meltdown" when they decide to start to come to terms with their anxiety and depression.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you tell a real Buddhist teacher from a fake one? What if you are interested in secular meditation and do not believe Buddhism or other religions are truthful?

> How do you tell a real Buddhist teacher from a fake one? This is notoriously difficult. Buddhist teachers are extremely reluctant to criticise one another; you won't get a straight answer if you ask "Should I go on a retreat with teacher X?". Ultimately you have to rely on your own intuition, which makes it a bit of a game of dice. > What if you are interested in secular meditation and do not believe Buddhism or ot…

I am not a teacher. I have practiced irregular Soto sitting for many years. I do occasional and informal reading of Buddhist texts.

By inspection (eg. sitting, paying attention, etc!), I discovered that we both do and do not have an independent self, at the very same time. They form a non-dual—-each arises in the combination of both and are mixed together in a way that trying to fix the boundary between them is folly.

I believe it is a major error to practice with the objective or possibility of annihilating the self. The self is an observable phenomenon. To reject it is crazy, as crazy as rejecting non-self.

IMHO a major milestone in practice is to grasp deeply the reality of non-duals, and leave behind the attachment to a dualistic belief in the self. This is nothing like annihilation.

As I became less desperately invested in a simplistic sovereign concept of self, my “self” became more confident, natural and wild. It's not going anywhere!

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#484
Hakuin, one of the most famous Japanese Zen master's, got "Zen Disease" when he was in his 20s and doing intense meditation. The symptoms sound very similar to what was in the article. He recommended a particular meditation as a cure. No clue about the efficacy of that, but this problem is clearly not unknown even among entirely orthodox practitioner's who presumably have qualified teachers.

https://buddhismnow.com/2015/09/12/zen-sickness-by-zen-maste...

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Studying koans is not a very good way of gaining understanding of something like Buddha Nature; they're designed to create confusion. I wasn't in a Zen tradition, and I'm no longer a Buddhist; I appreciate your respect, but I'm not about to start trying to figure out koans. [Edit: aren't you supposed to have a master, when you're working with koans?] Note that I'm not declaring Buddha Nature teachings to be heretical…

> aren't you supposed to have a master, when you're working with koans? Buddha is my master, teacher and guide, etc. This is all sorts of hilarious from a Zen perspective; interpreting Tathagatagarbha as monism, or Buddha as anything, heh.

“A teacher when one is required, no teacher when one is not required,“ or something like that. :) The Buddha is an existence proof of the possibility of direct independent observation and understanding.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#486
Every time I read something like this, the author turns out to be a regular drug user. I don’t necessarily have anything against that, but, having been sober my entire life, and having experimented heavily with natural hallucination methods such as lucidity, I seriously doubt that this level of intensity is possible. Aside from actual near-death experience (been there), it is extremely hard to hold onto even mild sensation without breaking lucidity. And if it takes drugs to get there, then don’t call it meditation, and don’t blame meditation for the side effects.

I’m not an expert, but, for the others like me, I think the best you may hope for in meditation is the ability to not be bothered by thoughts and distraction, the zen master being Grigori Perelman, who would not let a million dollar prize distract him from picking mushrooms.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love how when the west gets something and does its own interpretation that it's "watered" down as if the west can do nothing right and we're all spiritually and morally bankrupt idiots.

the West has its own spiritual traditions, that the type of people who meditation is pitched towards have completely abandoned. Mindfulness and such are spiritual practices stripped of their philosophical roots and repackaged in a consumable form. If SE Asian companies were selling the Lord's Prayer as a quick de-stressing technique for busy atheist office workers, I'd say they were missing the point too.

Would that make the Lord's Prayer twice repackaged (or re-gifted if you will) since it's a middle eastern practice already packaged as a consumable for the West?

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#489
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: > "I spent my last day in Los Angeles riding on a Segway, buying legal marijuana and staring at some turtles in an on-campus pond at UCLA. I was unsettled yet intrigued by Britton’s message. Some of the adverse experiences she had described were similar to challenges I had faced. But, at this point I was a decade into my intensive mindfulness meditation practice. I was too deep to get out. " There's…

Crazy. Agree with everything, although I would say at least in Soto 45 mins seems to be the maximum for one period during sessin, and 15 of that will be kinhin (walking meditation), I tend to do about an hour a day in two sessions, but any longer and there isn’t really any reward. Drugs are a hard no, I mean do them all you want but don’t combine the two.

>Drugs are a hard no, I mean do them all you want but don’t combine the two.

Why not?

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#490

I've found that many people (myself included) start down the path of Vipassana(analysis) type of meditation too early or from a position where we weren't prepared for the consequences. I wish I had spent more time with metta(compassion) and samatha (calmness) meditation and build up stability/forbearance and kindness/compassion first before starting to de-construct experience. It is said that one type of meditation l…

Exactly what I wanted to say too.

I was born Buddhist, studied at two Buddhist schools, and we were practicing meditation every day for nearly 90% of the year.

Reading that this person practiced Dhyana sounded very odd and irresponsible. What a vast majority of people here practice is Sathi (calmness) and Meththa (compassion), because it helps in regular activities and always have a positive impact.

Meditation practices like Anussathi, Vipassana, and Dhyana takes a lot more preparedness, and almost always is mentored by a monk.

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