Restaurant workers quit at record rate • Hacker News Board

Re: Restaurant workers quit at record rate

#731

Post by opo » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 4:07 AM UTC

71a54xd wrote: post #534

itsoktocry wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think some businesses are going out of businesses because they stubbornly refuse to raise their wages I'm skeptical that a business would choose to go out of business rather that give raises. Have you considered that margins are tighter than you think? I know small businesses like that.

One could argue the move to continue unemployment payments / covid payments is a strategy to "raise minimum wage" without actually having to pass any policy to do so. Politically it's brilliant, you gain the support of your voter base in 2yrs with the assumption that "cheap employers" will simply go out of business because nobody will work for them. And your more conservative base will champion you for "resisting to…

>...but the automation / negative outcomes of menial labor being too expensive to hire for will happen whether or not the official minimum wage is increased.

This is true, but obviously the rate at which this happens will matter.

In 1900, 41 percent of the US workforce was employed in agriculture. Due to increasing use of technology, 70 years later only 4 percent of the labor force worked in agriculture. If that loss of jobs had happened in say 20 years instead of 70 years, it obviously would have been a much more painful transition.

https://www.ers.usda.gov/webdocs/publications/44197/13566_ei...

Re: Restaurant workers quit at record rate

#732

Post by amyjess » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 4:07 AM UTC

pcmoney wrote: post #713

browningstreet wrote: post #498

I think some businesses are going out of businesses because they stubbornly refuse to raise their wages. In the vacation community where I live, there are two grocery/delis about a mile apart from each other. One is at a marina, the other is at a beach. They have almost the same business offering. Traditionally, both are fully mobbed during the sunny seasons. Two weeks ago, I visited the one I usually go to -- at the…

So the owner who has operated a cut throat, extremely demanding, razor thin margin for years folds because they don’t understand basic labor supply and demand? Keep in mind this person has mostly likely done in depth analysis on how to make their most popular item at the same quality but for 2% less of some expensive ingredient. I know one phenomenal restaurant owner who spent an entire year to get the cost of their…

If you can't stay open while paying people a living wage, you deserve to go out of business.

I would rather have nothing but chain restaurants owned by megacorps than have people working for less than a living wage.

Re: Restaurant workers quit at record rate

#733

Post by AndrewKemendo » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 4:10 AM UTC

daenz wrote: post #92

colinmhayes wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Restaurant work sucks, it's not tipping's fault. I don't work nearly as hard as a software developer compared to when I was a waiter or cook. Software development is lower stress most of the time too.

I knew someone who was mad at their partner because their partner was a software engineer and "didn't work as hard as they do" at a lower skill job, and yet made a lot more money. I'm not sure where this idea comes from that hard work is as valuable/more valuable than skilled work. But it seems to be a pervasive idea.

>I'm not sure where this idea comes from that hard work is as valuable/more valuable than skilled work. But it seems to be a pervasive idea.

Because the labor theory of value seems intuitively true,

Unfortunately it does not reflect the reality of how humans exchange labor.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_theory_of_value

Re: Restaurant workers quit at record rate

#734

Post by lumost » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 4:13 AM UTC

chaostheory wrote: post #647

Aloha wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just wages - like alot of what we can do is making shitty jobs less miserable, ensuring everyone gets some amount of vacation and sick time, insuring everyone has cheap or free healthcare access, ensuring everyone has relatively fixed schedule - eliminate punitive workplace policies, on stuff like attendance and other shit that makes being there miserable. Like, you can do a hell of alot to reduce peoples da…

All of that costs money. Are we as customers willing to pay for it? While a lot of us on HN can afford the price increases, not everyone else can. I have a feeling that wage increases will come, but there will be less employees and the remaining better paid employees will be augmented with technology in order to serve more customers ie more automation

When a deli closes up shop because they can't afford to hire people - it isn't for lack of customers interested in food. Food is a basic necessity that people will consume in as many varied forms as budget and tastes allow.

The notion that a deli would simply close up shop because they couldn't hire people at a wage they deemed reasonable means they either couldn't be bothered to try higher prices/quality - or for some reason they are unable to (e.g. high debt service costs). The building sitting empty and idle costs the business money, so it's surprising they don't at least try something.

Re: Restaurant workers quit at record rate

#735

Post by mbg721 » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 4:15 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #395

chickenpotpie wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree customer entitlement is growing but I disagree with your example. We created a society where we tell people they should chase their dreams and anything is possible in America. Then, when they chase their dreams and fail we tell them how stupid they are that they did that and they should have done something more practical. I don’t think teenagers should be blamed for doing exactly what they were told to do and…

Not checking starting salaries for one's major is stupid. I'm being blunt, but there's no other word for it. > teenagers Masters degree students are not teenagers.

The assumption that there's any kind of tidy line from a major to a career is a problem, and is hard to shake. I had good enough advice to know to look out for it, and I still got bitten by a situation where solid grades in a viable major were worth little without an in-field internship.

Re: Restaurant workers quit at record rate

#736

Post by lumost » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 4:17 AM UTC

flippertheD wrote: post #661

browningstreet wrote: post #498

I think some businesses are going out of businesses because they stubbornly refuse to raise their wages. In the vacation community where I live, there are two grocery/delis about a mile apart from each other. One is at a marina, the other is at a beach. They have almost the same business offering. Traditionally, both are fully mobbed during the sunny seasons. Two weeks ago, I visited the one I usually go to -- at the…

Well, all businesses run operations dif and have dif margins, so let's not forget that. I run a recruiting company. From our data a few things have popped up. First, people want higher wages in the lower wage industries. They are asking for $15-20 per hour. Second, lot of these people don't want to go back to the same labor jobs they had - they want to do something different. the problem with this is that they want t…

Why shouldn't a teenager make 20 an hour? At 16 your looking down the road at 2 very expensive options.

1) Go to college and earn a degree for 120-240k dollars

2) Start paying rent, owning your own car, healthcare, food, and leisure activities.

Both of these are expensive directions to take. It used to be that someone could pay for school with a summer job, why shouldn't it be now? It doesn't appear the education changed at all.

Re: Restaurant workers quit at record rate

#737

Post by IG_Semmelweiss » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 4:18 AM UTC

chillwaves wrote: post #701

crooked-v wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

General multitasking, team coordination, cash handling, basic restaurant dishwashing, stock management, industrial cleaning, pacifying unhappy customers, dealing with druggies and harassers, and a whole bunch of other things I've probably forgotten from when I worked fast food as a teenager. The simplicity of each individual job means that nobody ever has just one job at a fast food place. Stick around for any amount…

Any of those skills can be picked up at basically any job, further they require no foundational skills to learn. That's why the pay is low, because the skill set is widely accessible. I'm not sure why people insist that these kind of jobs are teaching valuable skills. All that is happening is the basic process of working. They could learn it in any context, at any point in their lives. There is no justification to pa…

They also reveal information.

For someone that didnt go to college, seeing a 2yr stint on a resume as a fast food worker tells me more about that persons work ethic, reliability, and general sense of getting stuff done vs your avg grad.

Its not only skills but its the information being conveyed

Re: Restaurant workers quit at record rate

#738

Post by PaulDavisThe1st » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 4:24 AM UTC

doopy1 wrote: post #714

AgentOrange1234 wrote: post #664

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Businesses might ask customers to pay more. They might instead pay CEOs and investors less. Automation is coming regardless.

Most businesses are small businesses, not ones run by mega millionaire CEOs.

but where do most people actually work?

Re: Restaurant workers quit at record rate

#739

Post by amyjess » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 4:26 AM UTC

bluGill wrote: post #323

namdnay wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess it depends how often you expect to eat out. If it’s once a month, I think most can afford more expensive restaurants

Once you learn to cook you won't eat at anything less than the most expensive. It is really hard to enjoy a meal when you are thinking "I could have done this better myself at less cost". Chains and fast food just don't provide the quality I demand for the most part, and even the independents are hit and miss.

I can guarantee you that unless you're an experienced professional chef yourself, restaurants make way better food than you can make at home. They make the same dishes night after night after night for as long as they're working for that restaurant. They have measurements of ingredients, cook time, how to cut everything just right, etc. baked into their muscle memory. They know every little trick and hack to bring out every little bit of flavor, which they've built through years of both experience and being taught on the job by more experienced cooks and chefs.

A couple of decent summaries:

* https://www.thedailymeal.com/eat/why-home-cooked-food-never-...

* https://old.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/1f1vr6/e...

Re: Restaurant workers quit at record rate

#740

Post by PaulDavisThe1st » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 4:27 AM UTC

pcmoney wrote: post #713

browningstreet wrote: post #498

I think some businesses are going out of businesses because they stubbornly refuse to raise their wages. In the vacation community where I live, there are two grocery/delis about a mile apart from each other. One is at a marina, the other is at a beach. They have almost the same business offering. Traditionally, both are fully mobbed during the sunny seasons. Two weeks ago, I visited the one I usually go to -- at the…

So the owner who has operated a cut throat, extremely demanding, razor thin margin for years folds because they don’t understand basic labor supply and demand? Keep in mind this person has mostly likely done in depth analysis on how to make their most popular item at the same quality but for 2% less of some expensive ingredient. I know one phenomenal restaurant owner who spent an entire year to get the cost of their…

> Panera, Qdoba, and 5 Guys. Just a monoculture of terrible bland food.

Compare with the food in the US say, 40 years ago. Whatever you feel about Panera & Qdoba, they are not bland by comparison with food the way it was within my lifetime.

I don't like 5 Guys much, because I'm not much of a burger eater, but they too are generally of significantly higher quantity than most burger outlets from 40 years ago.