EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable • Hacker News Board

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#91

Post by gruez » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 9:34 PM UTC

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #77

gruez wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're already not allowed to move undeclared cash across borders Right, because it's generally recognized that countries have the right to protect their borders > not sure why you can't have a rule that you can't have undeclared crypto wallets Are you exempt from this if you don't make cross-border transactions? Would it be constitutional for the EU to make a rule that you can't have undeclared cash wallets? > Tha…

It’s possible to demonstrate control of a wallet without giving the secrets to the government.

Your cryptographic identity is arguably a secret in addition to whatever the private key is.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#92

Post by api » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 9:35 PM UTC

AmericanChopper wrote: post #90

monkeydust wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea I think that's what they are proposing. If your in the EU and move crypto around then you have to register your wallet with you PII with some EU authority?

A crypto wallet doesn’t have a location though. It exists simultaneously on every connected node.

The location is where the secret key is stored. Wallet data is distributed but wallet holders are not.

In any case this kind of thing will be implemented by mandating it at the exchanges where crypto is converted to/from traditional currencies, making it impossible to actually use crypto (legally) without complying.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#93

Post by tick_tock_tick » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 9:37 PM UTC

ushakov wrote: post #52

> a company transferring crypto-assets for a customer would be obliged to include their name, address, date of birth and account number, and the name of the recipient guess what, Mr. Commissionaire? Bitcoin isn't a company and you don't need to ask companies to transfer crypto assets edit: this just shows how little power they have over the network, so they will tyrannise the middlemen instead

> Bitcoin isn't a company and you don't need to ask companies to transfer crypto assets

You don't need to ask a company to commit a crime you're still going to get punished.....

The vast majority of EU citizen are using some kind of exchange as an onramp and offramp. Those exchanges will do KYC and happily turn over any addresses they send/receive crypto too.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#94

Post by AmericanChopper » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 9:42 PM UTC

api wrote: post #92

AmericanChopper wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A crypto wallet doesn’t have a location though. It exists simultaneously on every connected node.

The location is where the secret key is stored. Wallet data is distributed but wallet holders are not. In any case this kind of thing will be implemented by mandating it at the exchanges where crypto is converted to/from traditional currencies, making it impossible to actually use crypto (legally) without complying.

That definition of location allows for:

* The wallet existing in no places

* The wallet existing in an unlimited number of places

* The wallet spontaneously replicating itself in a new location (with or without information transfer)

Certainly not a very mainstream interpretation of “location”.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#95

Post by Lichtso » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 9:42 PM UTC

I think total traceability would be fair, if it was truly total. But the state is gonna scramble all their addresses and transactions, leaving only the citizens unprotected in the open. Otherwise they (the state) themself would become transparent and suddenly people could find out where their tax money actually went.

Corruption anyone?

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#96

Post by elmo2you » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 9:42 PM UTC

BitwiseFool wrote: post #61

chippiewill wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're worried about that then Bitcoin isn't for you. It's not just Governments, anyone can see _every_ transaction as it's in the public ledger.

I'm aware that full ledger visibility is a fundamental part of Bitcoin. I'm actually more concerned that the governments and central banks of the world will push for near total traceability with their own currencies. Whether that comes in the form of "GovCoins" or reporting requirements, I do not know. But I think it is practically inevitable.

Your concerns likely are legit and justified. It appears indeed what plenty of governments are already working on and pushing towards just that .. and it won't be pretty if they ever manage to convince enough people to make it a mandatory if not the only legitimate way of monetary exchange.

However, I think it's actually the current unregulated crypto currencies ecosystem that should worry people far more. Consider the shady people that operate this space and their ability to mine all kinds of data. People might be surprised how valuable and useful behavioral data of individuals can be, especially when it relates to how they behave when dealing with speculative and uncertain dynamics (like e.g. the realities of crypto currencies themselves). That's all I will say about it.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#97

Post by nly » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 9:45 PM UTC

ushakov wrote: post #88

nly wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is uniswap really decentralised? I mean it has a domain you can take down

it's hosted on IPFS and the source code is on GitHub https://github.com/Uniswap

My understanding was the licensing on the web interface was not liberal

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#98

Post by Trias11 » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 9:45 PM UTC

SavantIdiot wrote: post #42

Trias11 wrote: post #18

>> The new rules would also prohibit providing anonymous crypto-asset wallets. Where should I send my Ledger to so i can be a good, obedient citizen and be compliant with this law?

Pretty easy actually: let me give you 0.01BTC, then I'll know what you spend your money on. Forever.

You'll know which addresses i sent my money to. Maybe.

But unlikely you'll know what i bought

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#99

Post by SavantIdiot » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 9:48 PM UTC

Trias11 wrote: post #98

SavantIdiot wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty easy actually: let me give you 0.01BTC, then I'll know what you spend your money on. Forever.

You'll know which addresses i sent my money to. Maybe. But unlikely you'll know what i bought

Metadata is sufficient.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#100

Post by Barrin92 » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 9:48 PM UTC

ushakov wrote: post #82

Barrin92 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>nobody asked them for this I very much support the policy. Anonymous money pretty much serves one thing uniquely well which is avoiding the law, sanctions, laundering money, buying drugs or funding crime and I don't think any society has interest in having these markets exist outside of the purview of the state.

would you also support banning words? it's apparent, that money launderers, drug buyers, criminals communicate using words

What kind of strawman is that? I didn't say I want to get rid of all forms of digital payments, I'm perfectly fine with any form of digital payment system if it is able to comply with basic due diligence required by the law. Anonymous payments stand out in that their only distinguishing advantage is that they make that impossible.

I don't want to ban words and I don't want to ban money. But society very well can demand that there is no shadow financial system that avoids obligations everyone else has to comply with.