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EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

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Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#71

Post by Trias11 »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #28
Trias11 wrote: post #10

That's why the move to decentralized everything. This total control nonsense will eventually end and these dinosaur idiots will stuck with their own destructive ideas

I do not really want to discourage this line of thinking, but please note the old fashioned golden rule ( he with the gold makes the rules ). Apart from that, check crypto trends and quickly you will notice that they are very few projects that care about it in any real way. Every major crypto now effectively all about centralization, not the opposite. For different reasons than the central banks, naturally. Still, th…

Lots of crypto projects are commercial businesses and this certainly creates conflict of interest toward monetizing and centralization.

However there are more and more truly decentralization projects. Anything that doesn't do KYC when related to crypto trading/exchanging - have to be

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#72

Post by Andys »

tobltobs wrote: post #41
gambiting wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Source of such bold claim? You can absolutely pay cash for (almost) anything. Even if you're buying a house, you can pay cash if both sides agree to it, and the solicitors check everything is legit and you can prove where you got the money from - but there is completely nothing in law that would prohibit such transaction from happening.

Payments over 10K in Cash are already forbidden in most EU countries. There are some exemptions to this rule and Germany and Austria do not have such a law until now. But it is planned to make this an EU wide law. Source: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_21_... (EU-wide limit of €10,000 on large cash payments)

Australian government has been unsuccessfully trying to bring this in too. its only a matter of time.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#73

Post by stavros »

elmo2you wrote: post #68
stavros wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except this is completely untrue, since there are private cryptocurrencies you can use.

How private are those then? Isn't it true that at least everything is visible to at least all participants? EDIT: in other words, my question is actually whether your claim has relevance, considering how most crypto currencies aim to be public (or that's at least my impression).

No, you can't see anything, basically. You can only see your own wallet and transactions, and (AFAIK) you can't even see who sent you funds.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#74

Post by Trias11 »

nly wrote: post #69
Trias11 wrote: post #10

That's why the move to decentralized everything. This total control nonsense will eventually end and these dinosaur idiots will stuck with their own destructive ideas

Is uniswap really decentralised? I mean it has a domain you can take down

No KYC. It's good enough for now.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#75

Post by Barrin92 »

ushakov wrote: post #31

i'm shocked how ignorant these lawmakers are, trying to gain control over a decentralised structure nobody asked them for this and even if this change ends up in bitcoin's core, it will ultimately fail to reach consensus our wallets are none of your business, EU, get out!

>nobody asked them for this

I very much support the policy. Anonymous money pretty much serves one thing uniquely well which is avoiding the law, sanctions, laundering money, buying drugs or funding crime and I don't think any society has interest in having these markets exist outside of the purview of the state.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#76

Post by lxgr »

kozak wrote: post #53

Bitcoins are not really fungible. There are already services that provide "fresh, minted straight to your wallet with no history" bitcoins, which cost more than normal "used" bitcoins.

Wouldn‘t a coin mixer achieve the same outcome of obfuscating the coins‘ source (if the provider of the service can be trusted and does not run away with the money) in exchange for explicitly tagging them as "somebody laundered these coins"?

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#77

Post by the_mitsuhiko »

gruez wrote: post #62
the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're already not allowed to move undeclared cash across borders, not sure why you can't have a rule that you can't have undeclared crypto wallets. That does not ban cryptography, that just forces people to declare their wallets.

> You're already not allowed to move undeclared cash across borders Right, because it's generally recognized that countries have the right to protect their borders > not sure why you can't have a rule that you can't have undeclared crypto wallets Are you exempt from this if you don't make cross-border transactions? Would it be constitutional for the EU to make a rule that you can't have undeclared cash wallets? > Tha…

It’s possible to demonstrate control of a wallet without giving the secrets to the government.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#78

Post by dogma1138 »

gambiting wrote: post #33
thomasahle wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cash mostly isn't allowed today, if you are transferring large enough sums of money. Probably for the better.

Source of such bold claim? You can absolutely pay cash for (almost) anything. Even if you're buying a house, you can pay cash if both sides agree to it, and the solicitors check everything is legit and you can prove where you got the money from - but there is completely nothing in law that would prohibit such transaction from happening.

As others have mentioned the EU is mulling an EU wide “ban” of transactions above €10,000.

However most member states already have that in place including far lower limits.

In Greece all cash transactions above €500 have to go through an AML due diligence process which includes a full KYC for both the buyer, seller and any beneficiaries of the transaction.

Basically it’s too much of a hassle to do so businesses simply do not accept cash, so anything from paying for a Hotel stay to buying a Laptop isn’t possible without a mountain of paper work which means it’s impossible in reality.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#79

Post by BitwiseFool »

ushakov wrote: post #49
sergiomattei wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm shocked how naive the DeFi industry was to think they could get away with little to no regulation. Tech doesn't rule the world. Old power structures are still in place.

DeFi was built with censorship resistance in mind EU can come up with new laws all day every day, but considering the technical detail, these laws will be impossible to enforce

I'm not so sure. Unless an EU citizen wants to risk submitting a false tax return under penalty of perjury, any DeFi money that results in a profit has to be reported elsewhere. Your bank will probably also start to ask questions if you do enough DeFi activity. You can probably get away with small transactions, but is it honestly worth the risk?

I don't see this law as impossible to enforce, but rather, difficult to enforce. The government will still try, and most likely succeed in catching several institutions that don't comply. Governments don't actually need thorough enforcement for laws to be effective.

Being easily capable of breaking a law does not mean that the law is unenforceable.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#80

Post by lxgr »

yawaworht1978 wrote: post #2

Pretty late and how will they deal with location independent companies like Binance? The CEO is more or less permanently on the lam.

All crypto on- and offramps are by definition connected to the regulated banking infrastructure.

If customers can‘t deposit or withdraw money to an exchange, that makes the exchange effectively inaccessible to customers in that jurisdiction.

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