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My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

danlawton.substack.com

231–240 of 600 posts

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#231
post #36
post #33

> This terrain was fresh. I had never previously experienced a psychotic episode and have no history of mental illness besides occasional bouts of mild anxiety and depression. ... > Why did I start meditating? The short answer is that in 2009 I started a fist fight in a French Quarter bar over some jambalaya, a steamy kiss, and a stray comment I didn’t take fondly. The evening ended hours later after I broke a window…

Alan Watts used to say "When you've received the message, hang up the phone."

A former student of Alan Watts, then a Taoist monk, found Orthodox Christianity after his searching, and has become a revered Priestmonk across the Orthodox world - he offers his own journey and offers the Eastern Orthodox Christian perspective of seeking God and His revelation. https://orthochristian.com/81732.html

https://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/illuminedheart/father_... >The impersonal concept of deity was actually an experience of the non-being from which we have come [already], and that the true understanding of God - the highest, fullest understanding of God is God as person, as I AM - He has revealed Himself as I AM. Archimandrive Sophrony, from His Life is Mine

Small short booklet Fr Seraphim Rose wrote: https://www.amazon.com/Gods-Revelation-Human-Heart-Seraphim/...

In my own journey out of buddhism, taoism, stoicism, psychadelics, Fr Seraphims writings helped clarify why their was still a hole in my soul, and why western Christianity made no sense to me.

In the Orthodox Christian perspective, they are the Church that followed the Council of Jerusalem (the Book of Acts), the earliest writings of the Church (St Ignatius, the Didache, etc.) then all the councils which codified the canon of scripture, the Ecumenical Councils, etc. Every council must affirm previous dogma; believed everywhere, by all (Orthodox Christians), and at all times - so the below article on the Essence and Energy distinction of God, by St Gregory Palamas, affirms the early writings of St Basil and the Cappadocian Fathers of the Church who were fighting heretical notions of what God is - the Church defined what He is not. The Cappadocian Church fathers affirm the Apostles and scriptures, etc. http://orthodoxinfo.com/phronema/florov_palamas.aspx

This is a nice comparison video of Tabernacle and Jewish Temple worship, and its continuation in the Orthodox Christian temples. The western church in Rome was of the same One Mind of Christ in worship, Creed and sacrament until 1054, and then subsequently the Protestant revolted against their dogmatic innovations, and yet now are splintered into thousands on thousands of beliefs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkmh68urI6A

WHAT IS THE NOUS AND HOW IS IT DISTINCT FROM THE SOUL? https://orthochristian.com/79038.html

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#232

Since this is a long article, here’s a summary for fellow readers — it’s mostly about the negative side effects of meditation that the author believes is under-documented or under-reported due to the ‘hype’ of meditation as the 21st century cure-all. He talks about dissociative experiences (which is well documented in medical research), it being a pseudo-religion, and lastly, his belief that the extended use of medit…

These sorts of things have been dealt with for centuries by Buddhists, it’s a fairly common effect when you start with Zazen. This is why taking one part of the practice and abandoning the rest (most specifically, an experienced teacher) isn’t a great idea for everyone. Most of the time all you need to hear is “just let whatever comes up during Zazen go, and return to the moment” but alas, if you don’t things can go…

> the “mindfulness industry” is full of charlatans and poor advice

Thank you for saying this.

There is an endless, dangerous trend of dismissing monastic traditions like Zen and trying to extract meditation from its context, under the assumption that teachings and formal practice are unnecessary.

It happens in scientific research on meditation as well as on popular McMindfullness.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#233

Ha! I thought it might have been vipassana. My own experience of this (a 10 day silent retreat, not having done meditation before) was a full blown manic-psychotic experience (never having had any such thing before, nor in family history). If you're interested, I made some audio files [0] talking about what happened. I honestly think it's _insane_ that they (vipassana) will take regular people who haven't done medita…

Bi-polar is specifically screened for as a contra-indication for retreats, at least Goenka ones (along with Reiki practice, interestingly). They may still allow a diagnosed individual on, but are supposed to give extra attention. What retreat did you go on, and did they ask about bi-polar experience pre-retreat?

They screen for a variety of things, but people aren't always honest. Psychosis and bipolar are two criteria. There may be more. They will also reject people if they are just clearly off their rocker -- Vipassana at these centers is specifically NOT for people with serious mental illness.

Reiki is a problem, I speculate, because it puts you in the habit of imagining sensation beyond your body, and this may lead to some problems. There may also be a spiritual aspect to it. One counter-point is that there is one meditation practice that goes beyond the body: metta. So maybe its a specific issue with Reiki (like how you'll never see a teacher wearing black and/or red at a retreat).

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#234
I have a soft spot for Buddhism teachings. Don't know ehy. But I don't have the habit of meditating. It comes easy to me to let go of things. I do okay to let go of emotions but some emotions stick and it takes an effort to kind of pull you away to not sink with them. You can't ignore that. You have to make that effort.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#235
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly what I took from it. He uses the terms "mindfulness" and "Buddhism" interchangeably, but they're not. Buddhism has ways to deal with meditations that "go bad", but mindfulness takes the Buddhism out of the practice. Mindfulness is not Buddhism.

I wouldn't conflate mindfulness (or capital M mindfulness, you could say) with meditation either. Meditation has always been a deeply spiritual practice; Mindfulness attempts to turn it into a psychological, clinical one.

>Meditation has always been a deeply spiritual practice; Mindfulness attempts to turn it into a psychological, clinical one.

Interestingly this is covered in the context of psychedelics too (which in my opinion are often touted in a similarly misleading way) by Dr Rick Strassman's fascining DMT: The Spirit Molecule. Making things like this too clinical or for lack of a better word mundane can alter their effects enormously.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#236

One item that i found intriguing is the research that negative experiences are more common than people think. One must wonder, why this is not common knowledge? Also, are there causation links, or not? My personal conclusion is that the sample is biased -- that is, some people seeking meditation are looking to self-medicate (subconsciously or not) on personal issues they wish to overcome. It would seem that perhaps a…

A lot of it can come from those self-help books that are, in reality, thinly veiled sales pitches intended to market the author as some sort of consultant.

You'll only ever read about the happy path or the success story, with some lip-service paid to how difficult it is to actually do in practice. You'll rarely get the raw detail of it, or a fully authentic account.

I'm not talking about quality literature here, but the short 250-pager you'd pick up in an airport bookshop that makes you feel good by the time you finish.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#237
There's a wide range of experience being lumped under the terms "meditation" and "mindfulness" here.

Alice finds a 5 minute walk after lunch improves her mood and suggests it to Bob. Bob mentions his brother was injured while walking a marathon. The ensuing conversation ends up not being very productive.

For some, "mindfulness" means sitting for 5 minutes and observing the moment without goals, judgement, or expectation. For the author, "mindfulness" means week long retreats.

As someone who sometimes suggests meditation, I am not saying the author is doing it wrong so much as I am saying that what he is doing is different than what I am suggesting.

That said, the author's warning is important. Be careful doing the mindfulness equivalent of a marathon, but if your interested a 5 minute walk probably won't hurt.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "Dark Night" is typically attributed to St. John of the Cross, although I'd be willing to believe that the term has been used in other traditions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Night_of_the_Soul Ah, note the last paragraph in this article: 'In modern mindfulness practice, many authors have named a similar phenomenon in meditation as the dark night of the soul after the poem. It is often described as a length…

>irresponsible meditation practices I can't imagine what an irresponsible meditation practice would look like. Any pointers?

Meditating without an experienced and well trained teacher.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, the trouble is that meditation as a practice, was always embedded into a larger sense of spirit/community/whatever. The popularity of MBSR broke that largely, and now lots of people start meditating with the notion that it's just mental exercise (which it is, sortof) and are very unprepared for some of the negative side-effects (which are normally parts of the mind that your consciousness doesn't want to accept).

People like Aleister Crowley, Austin Spare, and modern psychonauts interested in chaos magic have worked/played in these spaces outside of established traditions and communities. And there have always been people like this. But they also fully expect some weirdness to occur. Meditation within a community and tradition is certainly a safer, and often more fruitful way to go about it, just like traveling anywhere with…

> Aleister Crowley

I'm kinda with his student, Israel Regardie on this stuff though, which was that if you want to engage in spiritual practices, you should get therapy.

Essentially the notion is that in order to deal with the divine/universe/whatever, you need to have dealt with the mundane.

I think that this is really accurate, and would support this. Unfortunately, the "mindfulness" movement didn't really keep any of the baby when they experimented on the bathwater.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These sorts of things have been dealt with for centuries by Buddhists, it’s a fairly common effect when you start with Zazen. This is why taking one part of the practice and abandoning the rest (most specifically, an experienced teacher) isn’t a great idea for everyone. Most of the time all you need to hear is “just let whatever comes up during Zazen go, and return to the moment” but alas, if you don’t things can go…

> the “mindfulness industry” is full of charlatans and poor advice Thank you for saying this. There is an endless, dangerous trend of dismissing monastic traditions like Zen and trying to extract meditation from its context, under the assumption that teachings and formal practice are unnecessary. It happens in scientific research on meditation as well as on popular McMindfullness.

Isn't this a common/popular stereotype in so many movies? Hoity-toity protagonist believes they're more educated/better than the savages who follow old tradition, then have to eat some humble pie.

An age old tale we can't seem to learn.

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