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Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need not fear surveillance

theguardian.com

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Re: Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need not fear surveillance

#51

Post by krapp »

smichel17 wrote: post #46
krapp wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We already live in a world where surveillance changed the way people think and act, causing us to suppress non-conformist opinions. I don't see many people suppressing non-conformist opinions anywhere. Rather, I see people defiantly shouting their non-conformist opinions from the rooftops at every opportunity. Spend an hour on Twitter or Facebook and tell me anyone is suppressing any of their radical hot takes on a…

I do.

Chances are any non-conformist beliefs you have (assuming they're legal,) have their own subreddits, Twitter tags, Facebook groups, Youtube videos, etc, so that's probably just you.

Re: Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need not fear surveillance

#52

Post by arthur_sav »

Power asymmetry will always be abused if not kept in check.

Mass surveillance gives huge leverage to a handful of people under the pretext of safety and security.

China is just a small taste of how population control will look like in the future.

Re: Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need not fear surveillance

#53

Post by fighterpilot »

krapp wrote: post #51
smichel17 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do.

Chances are any non-conformist beliefs you have (assuming they're legal,) have their own subreddits, Twitter tags, Facebook groups, Youtube videos, etc, so that's probably just you.

Most of these are anonymous platforms where people are unafraid to speak their mind due to that anonymity. Also the existence of loud people on these platforms isn't evidence that the number of people self-censoring hasn't increased. A small, loud group of people is enough to create the effect that you see.

Polling suggests that the number of people self-censoring has increased. It's especially common among college educated conservatives, who are in tune with what they're supposed to think and also aware that their thoughts do not line up with that, and so decide to keep quiet on political questions, probably because they have more to lose career-wise.

Re: Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need not fear surveillance

#54

Post by gingerlime »

pattusk wrote: post #3

I don't think the problem is with the "lie" that the innocent need not fear surveillance. Most people will agree that mass-surveillance will negatively affect some people that are indispensable to healthily functioning liberal society: journalists, activists, academics, public figures... The problem is that even if most people don't subscribe to the "nothing to hide" argument in general, they do not care about themse…

yes, exactly. My mum, sister, brother and sister-in-law were all listed on the latest facebook leak (with ~500mil others). Yet none of them could be bothered to switch their phone number or get off facebook or whatsapp (even though they got signal and communicate with me on it once I moved away from whatsapp)…

I feel pretty helpless to help them understand the risks. Or they just don’t calculate the risk vs hussle the same way I would??

Re: Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need not fear surveillance

#55

Post by deregulateMed »

throwaway81523 wrote: post #19
Santosh83 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the 'time and effort required to maintain my privacy' part requires immediate and sustained and rigorous action and sacrifice of various comforts, all for a nebulously perceived, personally theoretical risk. The ultimate trajectory of liberal democracy is towards anarchism. But humans are anything but evolutionarily suited for that. We are biologically built to function in a hierarchy, even if the top of that…

> The ultimate trajectory of liberal democracy is towards anarchism. It's more like towards feudalism, and that's what the surveillance helps achieve. That's why surveillance is dangerous.

>towards anarchy

Yet every democracy seems to tend toward dictatorships according to history.

But I agree the idea behind liberalism is individuals, which anarchy makes sense.

Given I have 3 to 5 government layers, Federal, State, city, HOA, and international law, I'd certainly prefer to get rid of a few of these layers due to corruption.

Re: Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need not fear surveillance

#56

Post by krapp »

fighterpilot wrote: post #53
krapp wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chances are any non-conformist beliefs you have (assuming they're legal,) have their own subreddits, Twitter tags, Facebook groups, Youtube videos, etc, so that's probably just you.

Most of these are anonymous platforms where people are unafraid to speak their mind due to that anonymity. Also the existence of loud people on these platforms isn't evidence that the number of people self-censoring hasn't increased. A small, loud group of people is enough to create the effect that you see. Polling suggests that the number of people self-censoring has increased. It's especially common among college e…

It is circumstantial evidence, but I wouldn't expect an increase in radical activity on social media to occur in a society in which most people are afraid to express their views due to fear of omnipresent surveillance. Some people are self-suppressing, a lot of people aren't.

And what is it that people are afraid to say? That they only believe in two genders, or innate gender roles? That the US should return to the gold standard? That they don't trust the consensus on COVID vaccinations? Most people's "radical" beliefs aren't that radical, and the truly radical beliefs (white supremacy, anti-semitism, violent revolutionary ideology, pro-pedophilia) have always been suppressed by society, so the existence of the surveillance state changes nothing in those cases.

>It's especially common among college educated conservatives, who are in tune with what they're supposed to think and also aware that their thoughts do not line up with that, and so decide to keep quiet on political questions, probably because they have more to lose career-wise.

I'm not aware of any mainstream Conservative beliefs that are suppressed in general discourse, or that would lead someone to lose their job. I don't think many people have ever been fired for believing in limited government or the free market. Conservatives have an entire political party and half a country that supports and welcomes their beliefs, and plenty of businesses that would hire them because of those beliefs.

Re: Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need not fear surveillance

#57

Post by advael »

There's no way to stop shit like this from happening at scale if we keep making exceptions for law enforcement and international espionage

Until people stop accepting busting drug dealers by tapping their phones, they're going to keep getting journalists and other random people having their phones tapped too. The hard line we need to take is that there is no legitimate use of this capability

Re: Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need not fear surveillance

#59

Post by phillc73 »

christophilus wrote: post #35

My next phone is going to be a Linux phone, and this is partly why. Individuals need to be the ones in control of the software and hardware that they use, not the other way around.

I'm seriously considering just going with a feature phone. I am very careful about the apps I have installed on my phone and most of them are just for convenience and not critical.

I could do without email, just wait until I'm at a desktop/latop. I could do without chat, again just wait until I'm at a desktop/laptop or use SMS. I could probably do without a browser as well, although this would probably be the most inconvenient loss.

Other than that, I use my mobile phone as a phone, a camera and an alarm clock. If I want small, high quality digital camera I could buy one (or use a phone without a sim card and Wifi turned off 90% of the time). A feature phone would cover the phoning, SMS and alarm use cases.

I'm really not sure what I'd be missing out on that was critical to my life. I'm about to have a three week summer holiday and I am sorely tempted to buy a sub-€100 feature phone just to try this idea. As I also don't want to take a laptop on holiday, I might need to take the smart phone with me to check things once a day. At least it would then only be in one specific location for a very short time.

Re: Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need not fear surveillance

#60

Post by novaRom »

christophilus wrote: post #35

My next phone is going to be a Linux phone, and this is partly why. Individuals need to be the ones in control of the software and hardware that they use, not the other way around.

Most modern phone's hardware needs proprietary drivers. Besides, some backdoors are embedded into hardware directly.
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