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Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need not fear surveillance

theguardian.com

31–40 of 162 posts

Re: Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need not fear surveillance

#31
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, we are biologically built to function in bands of no more than 300 people. Hierarchies are just the basic level of abstraction allowing bands to collectively form tribes, nations, and empires.

You are saying it as if "in bands of no more than 300 people" there was no hierarchy. It starts appearing at few dozens, let alone few hundreds. Proof of it being biological? Look at other primates. They form groups of way less than few hundreds and still maintain (strict) hierarchy.

It's nowhere as clear-cut as you try to portray it. First of all, there are differences among primates, how are these hierarchies structured and some of it is also, surprisingly, cultural. (Look for example at work of Robert Sapolsky.)

I for example believe that hierarchies are a cultural artifact of civilization, not a biologically inherent human value. The inherent human value is deference to authority, which is useful to maintain existing order and generational memory (and is the basis for what we typically call "conservative"). In tribes of 300 people or so, the hierarchies are easily challenged. In a civilization of 1000s of people, with incomplete information, this is much more difficult.

(That being said, I think there are individuals who do not share typical human values, and try to subvert those for their personal benefit. So these individuals might subvert the value of deference to authority to create a hierarchy from which then they personally benefit. Just like existence of somebody, who might always take and never give back, doesn't invalidate reciprocity as a typical human value.)

And in fact we increasingly live in a world where everybody is a member of multiple independent social hierarchies, and these apply situationally (and it's not even clear they are always needed). This really strains the claim that humans inherently favor hierarchies (which there should be only one), rather than just simply defer to authorities (which might be multiple or even chosen by each individual independently).

Re: Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need not fear surveillance

#32
post #8
post #3

I don't think the problem is with the "lie" that the innocent need not fear surveillance. Most people will agree that mass-surveillance will negatively affect some people that are indispensable to healthily functioning liberal society: journalists, activists, academics, public figures... The problem is that even if most people don't subscribe to the "nothing to hide" argument in general, they do not care about themse…

I think there are a couple of levels to this. I try to avoid adtech-driven stuff because I prefer other kinds of products which come out of different business incentives. On a practical level, that's what drives my online privacy habits. On a more sinister level, even though a malicious state seems very distant (Nordics here), given how many such there are in the world, it is definitely not impossible. We must avoid…

The crux of the Tor project was all about herd anonymity. Your traffic blends in with millions of other Tor users. Unfortunately global passive surveillance, flooding the network with malicious nodes and targetted exploits of the browser and OS mean that very strong anonymity is still not possible, even with a relatively 'extreme' solution like Tor.

Re: Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need not fear surveillance

#33
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, we are biologically built to function in bands of no more than 300 people. Hierarchies are just the basic level of abstraction allowing bands to collectively form tribes, nations, and empires.

You are saying it as if "in bands of no more than 300 people" there was no hierarchy. It starts appearing at few dozens, let alone few hundreds. Proof of it being biological? Look at other primates. They form groups of way less than few hundreds and still maintain (strict) hierarchy.

Wolves were thought to make strict hierarchies but it was debunked. In nature they work more like family - a nonstrict hierarchy.

Re: Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need not fear surveillance

#34
post #27

Pegasus is what the Saudis used to capture Khashoggi. While it’s very impressive software, it’s incredibly dangerous in the wrong hands.

> in the wrong hands

In any hands, I should think. Some things just shouldn’t exist.

Re: Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need not fear surveillance

#36
post #3

I don't think the problem is with the "lie" that the innocent need not fear surveillance. Most people will agree that mass-surveillance will negatively affect some people that are indispensable to healthily functioning liberal society: journalists, activists, academics, public figures... The problem is that even if most people don't subscribe to the "nothing to hide" argument in general, they do not care about themse…

"I don't care" is frequently a stand-in for "I feel powerless in the face of precisely zero meaningful steps available for me to take to fight the surveillance state/big tech that don't sort of ruin my life".

Re: Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need not fear surveillance

#37

I think the fight against mass surveillance needs first to be lost in order to even start. Right now the average citizen has not witnessed an impact on his life and there's no shortage of other problems he has to deal with. I'm not saying techies should just stay passive though. Special cases - journalists, activists, politically involved - need to be protected right now, and when the problem will be generally unders…

We already live in a world where surveillance changed the way people think and act, causing us to suppress non-conformist opinions.

It is why mass surveillance exist in the first place, to foster collective conformity.

Unfortunately we are prone to accept authoritarianism these days. The more economical and ecological uncertainties there are the more we desire order and stability, no matter the cost. For many having to look the other way is a small price to pay.

Re: Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need not fear surveillance

#38

Fun fact: London has ~700k cameras and is top 3 in the world by cameras per capita, top 20 being almost exclusively Chinese cities https://www.comparitech.com/vpn-privacy/the-worlds-most-surv...

It's worth noting the majority of cctv cameras in the UK are privately owned, watching over private property, not owned by the state. So you can assume a) they're not actively monitored b) recordings are stored only for short periods of time (and retained only in event of a crime)

Don't get me wrong, UK has a strange fixation with CCTV. But I wonder how these figures would look if you excluded privately owned cameras

Edit: more information here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance_in_the_Uni...

Re: Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need not fear surveillance

#39
post #23

Fun fact: London has ~700k cameras and is top 3 in the world by cameras per capita, top 20 being almost exclusively Chinese cities https://www.comparitech.com/vpn-privacy/the-worlds-most-surv...

>London has ~700k cameras A fact that often scurries across my mind when I read about some crime caught in 4k (especially home security cams) for which the police are unable to find the culprits. Are all those cameras actually on?

The recent murder of Sarah Everard was solved largely because of CCTV images taken by, if I remember rightly, a bus and a Ring doorbell. Police were able to retrace her movements using those images as reference points and then working backwards to her last known location and forwards to when she encountered her killer (who turned out to be an off-duty police officer). [1]

I think a lot of the time it comes down to resources. For a high profile murder they're prepared to put in the effort. For more minor offences, it's not worth it (to the police, not the same as to the victim)

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jul/09/sarah-everar...

Re: Huge data leak shatters the lie that the innocent need not fear surveillance

#40

I think the fight against mass surveillance needs first to be lost in order to even start. Right now the average citizen has not witnessed an impact on his life and there's no shortage of other problems he has to deal with. I'm not saying techies should just stay passive though. Special cases - journalists, activists, politically involved - need to be protected right now, and when the problem will be generally unders…

We already live in a world where surveillance changed the way people think and act, causing us to suppress non-conformist opinions. It is why mass surveillance exist in the first place, to foster collective conformity. Unfortunately we are prone to accept authoritarianism these days. The more economical and ecological uncertainties there are the more we desire order and stability, no matter the cost. For many having…

> We already live in a world where surveillance changed the way people think and act, causing us to suppress non-conformist opinions.

I don't see many people suppressing non-conformist opinions anywhere. Rather, I see people defiantly shouting their non-conformist opinions from the rooftops at every opportunity. Spend an hour on Twitter or Facebook and tell me anyone is suppressing any of their radical hot takes on anything.

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