Live data from Hacker News

Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

eff.org

371–380 of 600 posts

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#371
post #30

This all sounds very nice, but there's a bit of sleight of hand here since the article goes out of its way to avoid details. That way everyone reads into exactly what they want, and it's totally non-obvious whether this is actually a workable proposal or not. But what's the concrete proposal here? How would things actually work? Will the services be forced to accept whatever unmoderated feed of filth the linked to se…

Supreme Court of the United States Justice Clarence Thomas opined couple months ago discussing big tech censorship quite extensively. The case was regarding whether Trump was allowed to block people on Twitter and it being a 1st amendment violation. While the case was declared moot as Trump left office, Justice Clarence Thomas took the opportunity to discuss censorship. How politicians aren't allowed to block users on big tech but big tech is able to block and ban politicians and government employees and how this creates a weird power dynamic.

I would highly recommend reading his opinion:

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/20pdf/20-197_5ie6.pdf

Here's a few excerpts:

> "But whatever may be said of other industries, there is clear historical precedent for regulating transportation and communications networks in a similar manner as traditional common carriers. Candeub 398–405. Telegraphs, for example, because they “resemble[d] railroad companies and other common carriers,” were “bound to serve all customers alike, without discrimination." ... "Internet platforms of course have their own First Amendment interests, but regulations that might affect speech are valid if they would have been permissible at the time of the founding. See United States v. Stevens, 559 U. S. 460, 468 (2010). The long history in this country and in England of restricting the exclusion right of common carriers and places of public accommodation may save similar regulations today from triggering heightened scrutiny—especially where a restriction would not prohibit the company from speaking or force the company to endorse the speech." ... "The similarities between some digital platforms and common carriers or places of public accommodation may give legislators strong arguments for similarly regulating digital platforms. [I]t stands to reason that if Congress may demand that telephone companies operate as common carriers, it can ask the same of ”digital platforms." ... "For example, although a “private entity is not ordinarily constrained by the First Amendment,” Halleck, 587 U. S., at ___, ___ (slip op., at 6, 9), it is if the government coerces or induces it to take action the government itself would not be permitted to do, such as censor expression of a lawful viewpoint. Ibid. Consider government threats. “People do not lightly disregard public officers’ thinly veiled threats to institute criminal proceedings against them if they do not come around.” Bantam Books, Inc. v. Sullivan, 372 U. S. 58, 68 (1963). The government cannot accomplish through threats of adverse government action what the Constitution prohibits it from doing directly. See ibid.; Blum v. Yaretsky, 457 U. S. 991, 1004–1005 (1982). Under this doctrine, plaintiffs might have colorable claims against a digital plat- form if it took adverse action against them in response to government threats. The Second Circuit feared that then-President Trump cut off speech by using the features that Twitter made available to him. But if the aim is to ensure that speech is not smothered, then the more glaring concern must perforce be the dominant digital platforms themselves."

> "As Twitter made clear, the right to cut off speech lies most powerfully in the hands of private digital platforms. The extent to which that power matters for purposes of the First Amendment and the extent to which that power could lawfully be modified raise interesting and important questions. This petition, unfortunately, affords us no opportunity to confront them." The last 2 points are important as Justice Thomas is basically saying "give us a case which brings up these two questions and then we will have a deep look."

One can even cite Amazon's recent censorship of SCOTUS Justice Clarence Thomas's own documentary as well as Eli Steele’s documentary as examples:

https://archive.is/aNv3B

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you want our future determined by a few well-informed, rational people? Or do you want it determined by an ignorant, short-sighted mass? "I am obliged to confess I should sooner live in a society governed by the first two thousand names in the Boston telephone directory than in a society governed by the two thousand faculty members of Harvard University."

Instead of making a snarky smear upon the faculty of what is probably the most coveted university in the world, why don't you just come out and make an informed argument on what you find so wrong with them? “There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the…

Are you really asking for an informed argument about what's so wrong with the rule of the Ivy League optimates? Isn't it pretty simple just to cite Robert McNamara and call it a day? What am I missing about the complexity of this issue?

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is no doubt true (about how the algorithms work). At the same time what we see is that there is a market, demand, for misinformation. And some people are making money from that. Why is there so much misinformation about Covid vaccines and vaccines in general? Because people want to believe in such misinformation and because that allows websites to make money from their readership. Therefore the peddling of misin…

Because there are sociopolitical actors who can extract direct benefit from OTHER people believing misinformation to their detriment. You are omitting this motivation, and it's a significant factor, worth spending money and energy on if your motivation is to harm a population that you see as your enemy. This assumes a global marketplace of information propagation. That's the new factor here: the actual motivation isn…

I wonder how prevalent the will to "harm a population" is. I think it's more about benefitting oneself financially than trying to harm others. Politically speaking yes politicians try to harm (the popularity of) their opponents. But politicians are a very small slice of the population.

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#374
A lot of the discussion around censorship devolves to "it's a private company, they can do whatever". While this has already been proven to be a false idea based on the comments from the White House actively telling private companies which posts/users to take down, I would also like to share how things happen in China:

"People in the U.S. seem able to recognize that China’s censorship of the internet is bad. They say: “It’s so authoritarian, tyrannical, terrible, a human rights violation.” Everyone sees that, but then when it happens to us, here, we say, “Oh, but it’s a private company doing it.” What people don’t realize is the majority of censorship in China is being carried out by private companies.

Rebecca MacKinnon, former CNN Bureau chief for Beijing and Tokyo, wrote a book called Consent of the Network that lays all this out. She says, “This is one of the features of Chinese internet censorship and surveillance—that it's actually carried out primarily by private sector companies, by the tech platforms and services, not by the police. And that the companies that run China's internet services and platforms are acting as an extension of state power.”

The people who make that argument don’t realize how close we are to the same model. There are two layers. Everyone’s familiar with “The Great Firewall of China,” where they’re blocking out foreign websites. Well, the US does that too. We just shut down Press TV, which is Iran’s PBS, for instance. We mimic that first layer as well, and now there’s also the second layer, internally, that involves private companies doing most of the censorship."

https://taibbi.substack.com/p/meet-the-censored-matt-orfalea

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#375
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This applies to policing in general of all kinds? Isn't this literally an "abolish the police" argument? After all, imagine the police used against you in the worst possible way ..

Surely one can conceive of effective ways to limit to damage the police can do to people short of abolishing the police. For example, disarm the police and they can’t shoot you.

As long as it's legal for them to kill you because they feel like it, not having a gun doesn't change that.

Their knees are just as deadly, but I don't think taking away officers knees is a good next step after their guns

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#376
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally would rather see disciplinary action akin to what's done in the military. Not that that isn't without its issues, but the machinery that makes it work is larger and more independent from the people being disciplined than what you get at the state and local law enforcement level.

Right now you have a damned if you do damned if you don't situation where police get 0 credit for saving thousands if not more lives, yet the one time they make a mistake their are immediately put on the chopping block. Recognizing what policing should look like and idealizing that would go a long way.

[deleted]

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's ironic (or maybe appropriate) that this, talking about how better ideas don't rise to the top, is the top comment. The most abhorrent idea of all to me is that there are stupid, weak people that are worse than "us" that we need to shield from bad ideas because they are not smart enough (like we are) to handle them. Lots of support for this view in downstream comments (we're just intelligent apes etc). The strawm…

>The most abhorrent idea of all to me is that there are stupid, weak people that are worse than "us" that we need to shield from bad ideas because they are not smart enough (like we are) to handle them This is the basic hierarchical nature of any complex society. In a well functioning society those people, called elites (today already considered a derogatory term), are being funneled to the top where they're put into…

This assumes that people reach "elite" status due to merit rather than to to complicated in-group favoring dynamics that serve to entrench certain class/ethnic/political interests. The more gatekeeping you allow the elites to do, the less meritocratic the elites are.

So the idea that some people are better at some things than other people is indeed true, but the idea that we can reliably measure that without the metric being gamed and corrupted is false.

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#378

A lot of the discussion around censorship devolves to "it's a private company, they can do whatever". While this has already been proven to be a false idea based on the comments from the White House actively telling private companies which posts/users to take down, I would also like to share how things happen in China: "People in the U.S. seem able to recognize that China’s censorship of the internet is bad. They say…

> While this has already been proven to be a false idea based on the comments from the White House actively telling private companies which posts/users to take down

No, it hasn't. A government office telling private actors what it cobsiders to be misinformation and would like not relayed is not state censorship as long as there is no compulsory process. A private party can certainly use “I trust the government, and they say X is wrong” as an input to their consideration of how to exercise their free speech without it being anything other than free speech.

> What people don’t realize is the majority of censorship in China is being carried out by private companies.

China has and uses compulsory process to ensure compliance with its desired censorship, though.

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#379
post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He had a highly curable type of pancreatic cancer.

This is absolutely incorrect, he had islet cell neuroendocrine cancer, which is a much less common form of pancreatic cancer. "Highly curable pancreatic cancer" is a totally ludicrous statement. The prognosis of these type of tumor is highly variable and he lived a pretty long time with it regardless. He did not 'disregard "the medical elite" and went on an all-fruit diet', he had the tumor removed[0] nearly 20 years…

“The 5-year survival rate for people with pancreatic NET that has not spread to other parts of the body from where it started is 93%.”

Jobs delayed aggressive treatment for close to a year. He finally had the Whipple surgery, but it reoccurred likely due to spreading.

Well never know what might have been but suffice to say he only shortened his life.

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#380
post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand how one could look at the current state of affairs regarding rampant misinformation online and say "yeah this is the best we can do without compromising our ideals". Its not good enough.

I think that's the real issue in all of this discussion: there is simply no will. It's too hard, it's too impossible, we've decided big tech has already won, we've ceded decades of open progress in tech to moguls who don't give the fuck about us, or we're so ideological that any step to the "left" or "right" is perceived as abdicating principles of freedom. My gp was a former-Jew (thanks anti-semites) that flew over…

I'm sorry but I don't quite understand how Reddit--a bastion for young 20-somethings, among which leftism is a major demographic, could ever be construed as a Q-Anon stronghold.

I feel as though this may more reflect your fears than the state of the site, and I feel as though so reflexively writing off a population that already largely agree with you illumines the opposite argument--that reaction to speech is largely an overreaction, and we will, without careful consideration, largely consider any bloc to be constituted of what we fear.

Post reply on HN