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Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

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Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#291

Post by remarkEon »

bitwize wrote: post #258
remarkEon wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Because uh, right now, we have Nazis. We do not, in fact, have Nazis. Allow me to re-phrase: Yes, censorship is bad, but which is worse: admitting a little bit of censorship, or Islamic Terrorists? Because uh, right now, we have Islamic Terrorists. At least one was real in the last couple decades.

It is an ironclad fact that more Americans have been killed by right-wing domestic terrorists than by Islamic terrorists since 9/11.

Even if it were true and even if you didn't set the boundary at "9/11", which is a helluva point in time to stop counting, I'm not sure how that's relevant. Your original post is the classic "yes censorship is bad, but [insert apocalyptic strawman]" style used elsewhere on this thread but more broadly in media to justify a technological crackdown on people saying things they don't like.

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#292

Post by goatlover »

GekkePrutser wrote: post #235
throwawayboise wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you say that with regards to tobacco? It's all but illegal, completely banned in most public places, you can basically only use it in your home or outdoors alone. "Not on the timescale you want" is the salient point.

If the system actually worked tobacco would actually be banned and not almost. Despite being only able to smoke outdoors I still see many young people in Spain taking up the habit.

Why should tobacco be banned? That's just another war on drugs that didn't work for alcohol or pot, and isn't working for the current illicit drugs. People should be allowed to smoke what they want, as long as it isn't a health issue for others. If young people in Spain want to smoke outside or in their homes, so what?

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#293

Post by [deleted] »

version_five wrote: post #203
Nursie wrote: post #26

>First of all, the internet’s “marketplace of ideas” is severely lopsided at the platform level The marketplace of ideas itself has been show to be a bust in recent years, IMHO. Better ideas, better models of truth and reality don't win out. People have not shown themselves interested in intellectual debate or argument. We do not see the 'best' ideas rise to the top. And before anyone asks who I am to judge the best…

It's ironic (or maybe appropriate) that this, talking about how better ideas don't rise to the top, is the top comment. The most abhorrent idea of all to me is that there are stupid, weak people that are worse than "us" that we need to shield from bad ideas because they are not smart enough (like we are) to handle them. Lots of support for this view in downstream comments (we're just intelligent apes etc). The strawm…

[deleted]

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#294

Post by suzzer99 »

version_five wrote: post #203
Nursie wrote: post #26

>First of all, the internet’s “marketplace of ideas” is severely lopsided at the platform level The marketplace of ideas itself has been show to be a bust in recent years, IMHO. Better ideas, better models of truth and reality don't win out. People have not shown themselves interested in intellectual debate or argument. We do not see the 'best' ideas rise to the top. And before anyone asks who I am to judge the best…

It's ironic (or maybe appropriate) that this, talking about how better ideas don't rise to the top, is the top comment. The most abhorrent idea of all to me is that there are stupid, weak people that are worse than "us" that we need to shield from bad ideas because they are not smart enough (like we are) to handle them. Lots of support for this view in downstream comments (we're just intelligent apes etc). The strawm…

IMO your stance basically amounts to "propaganda doesn't work". History would suggest otherwise.

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#295

Post by _meqs »

varelse wrote: post #244

Enragement equals engagement. If that's the world you want, good news, that's the world we have now. And the magic of AI and recommender systems has disrupted that old and stupid model of if "it bleeds it leads" to get you outraged faster and with far less effort than it used to take in the old and stupid days. But that's not the world I want to live in personally and if it takes some imperfect even sometimes ham-fis…

"The free marketplace of ideas" (and also classical liberalism) is hugely reliant on the idea of humans as rational agents (both the people selling and the people consuming). But when we're not, everything opens up to tons of propaganda (especially that from fascists who are more than willing to engage where leftists will reject premises).

You can't have "enragement equals engagement" AND the "free" marketplace of ideas is good. The first is the natural consequence of the existence of the latter. If you take issue with the first, you should not accept the second either.

As for what should replace that 'free' market, I honestly don't know. But deplatforming (not censoring, deplatforming) hate speech is a good place to start.

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#296

Post by suzzer99 »

Nursie wrote: post #72
spamizbad wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because the "marketplace of ideas" is being distorted by algorithms that are going to favor "provocative" ideas that drive clicks. Exciting lies defeat boring truths.

That may well be a big factor, and that's something that needs to be looked at more closely. Lots of people describe being drawn down the rabbithole by algorithmically driven suggestions which nudge them ever more extreme.

I have thought this for a while. Algorithms are something entirely new to human discourse.

Apparently I watched some alt-right-adjacent podcast or something, so for weeks youtube kept recommending seriously racist, fascist, white nationalist content. The algorithm was actively trying to lead me down the rabbit hole. Obviously it's learned that doing so increases engagement.

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#297

Post by Barrin92 »

version_five wrote: post #203
Nursie wrote: post #26

>First of all, the internet’s “marketplace of ideas” is severely lopsided at the platform level The marketplace of ideas itself has been show to be a bust in recent years, IMHO. Better ideas, better models of truth and reality don't win out. People have not shown themselves interested in intellectual debate or argument. We do not see the 'best' ideas rise to the top. And before anyone asks who I am to judge the best…

It's ironic (or maybe appropriate) that this, talking about how better ideas don't rise to the top, is the top comment. The most abhorrent idea of all to me is that there are stupid, weak people that are worse than "us" that we need to shield from bad ideas because they are not smart enough (like we are) to handle them. Lots of support for this view in downstream comments (we're just intelligent apes etc). The strawm…

>The most abhorrent idea of all to me is that there are stupid, weak people that are worse than "us" that we need to shield from bad ideas because they are not smart enough (like we are) to handle them

This is the basic hierarchical nature of any complex society. In a well functioning society those people, called elites (today already considered a derogatory term), are being funneled to the top where they're put into positions of power.

I don't really know why that's in itself supposed to be abhorrent, because it's how any functional organisation is structured. The problems start when institutions break down and the quality of your elites is reduced, but the solution is not some sort of choose your own adventure story where you let the inmates run the asylum. There's no organisation on earth that survives like that.

The entire notion that the vast majority of adults 'make their own choices' is a complete fiction to begin with. Choices exist downstream from culture and culture itself is produced by elites and consumed by 'adults', and so the choice you have to ponder is which people you want to be in charge of producing your culture. Might be Harvard, Zuckerberg, Tucker, or the Pope, but the people have nothing to do with it.

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#298

Post by _meqs »

pjc50 wrote: post #42
daenz wrote: post #5

Take what you support and imagine it used against you in the worst possible ways. Do you still support it? If yes, then it is worth supporting. If it's not, then maybe you're only supporting it because of who it currently helps or harms. This exercise also works with things that you don't support.

This applies to policing in general of all kinds? Isn't this literally an "abolish the police" argument? After all, imagine the police used against you in the worst possible way ..

First off: no, that is not the abolish the police argument. The argument for police abolition is as part of a massive restructuring of how we think about crime, not how we think about police. It's about taking our focus away from police themselves (the antithesis of 'imagine the police doing horrible things to you') and onto the factors that make people victims of the police: systemic racism, drug addictions, mental illnesses, and the exploitative nature of capitalism at its worse. When we redirect our attention to solving the root issues, focusing on policing is redundant and harmful.

Second off, you're totally right. Abolish the police.

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#299

Post by remarkEon »

Torwald wrote: post #286
remarkEon wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Plenty more that I can't remember off the top of my head. You should familiarize yourself with the rest of post-War 20th century history in the United States, then. Far, far more deadly and dangerous "conspiracy theories" existed before the internet and caused actual deaths of sitting politicians. It's the Presentism of all of this that is making people forget how pernicious it is, letting these powerful organizatio…

> Far, far more deadly and dangerous "conspiracy theories" existed before the internet and caused actual deaths of sitting politicians. Care to name an example?

Here's an example that often gets memory-holed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_United_States_Capitol_sho...

Re: Right or left, you should be worried about big tech censorship

#300

Post by toomanyducks »

robertlagrant wrote: post #216
UncleMeat wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This approach only works if you expect other people to do the same. I don't want to be thrown in prison for my beliefs. I'm not certain that "hey, we let you march in public" is going to stop fascists from throwing me in prison or outright killing me.

That can only happen if you gave government the ability to throw you in prison for that, and then somehow a tiny minority got into government and abused the power you gave them.

The Liberal state has a monopoly on violence: whatever their violence is, like throwing someone into prison, is by nature justified in the eyes of the state.
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