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Google parts with Cloud VP over his manifesto renouncing his antisemitism

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Re: Google parts with Cloud VP over his manifesto renouncing his antisemitism

#81
post #13

If we look at things in terms of positive and negative reinforcement this has some interesting consequences. So, he admitted to antisemitism in the past and shared how he has grown or is growing past it. This kind of admission by him has the ability to challenge other and positively reinforce others who are in a similar situation to him. That _positive_ reinforcement for change away from antisemitism. He was pushed o…

So, I'll start off by saying - I work at google, in cloud, but not for this person, I don't know anything about him, and this is my own opinion. I think if someone had asked him at an all hands for his position on the israel palestine conflict, and he said something like: "I grew up in a strict Egyptian Muslim household, indoctrinated to hate Israel and Jews, and it wasn't until I was exposed to jewish people and bec…

I didn't see it that way at all. Maybe because my home country has border issues and we've dealt with otherization from a young age. Certainly, nothing like the conflict he refers to, but I guess I have some personal context. I see someone who was genuinely baffled at the thought that there are good people of a particular ethnicity, when he was brainwashed completely to the opposite. The point about the 0.1% DNA is actually quite interesting. years back, I remember this white supremacist on oprah undergoing a DNA test and learning he had some black ancestors. It was a crazy moment where they realized that they were hating a part of their own identity - no matter how small it was. IMHO, most of the so called "manifesto" - can't we just call it a blog? - is milquetoast feel-good kumbayah stuff that has been said uncontroversially by other authors for decades.

As an aside, I think telling someone "nobody asked you for your opinion" is pretty rude. I don't think its constructive to put limits on people's freedom of personal expression in that way. It was a personal message/blog that they felt like getting off their chest. Google firing him just for this (if that is the case, I guess we don't know for sure) is absurd IMO. My sense is that it became a PR issue and Google just got rid of him rather than actually fostering a place where differing opinions are welcomed. This cancel culture is getting crazy.

Re: Google parts with Cloud VP over his manifesto renouncing his antisemitism

#82
post #13

If we look at things in terms of positive and negative reinforcement this has some interesting consequences. So, he admitted to antisemitism in the past and shared how he has grown or is growing past it. This kind of admission by him has the ability to challenge other and positively reinforce others who are in a similar situation to him. That _positive_ reinforcement for change away from antisemitism. He was pushed o…

Don't ask, don't tell: racism edition

Except being racist is bad and being gay isn't.

Re: Google parts with Cloud VP over his manifesto renouncing his antisemitism

#83
post #5

As awkward is his note was, this is a public admission that he had bigoted views and grew and is still trying to grow out of them. I wish I was a fly on the wall at Google to understand why that's not acceptable. Growing and learning is necessary and the only hope.

The post is not the only relevant data point here.

Re: Google parts with Cloud VP over his manifesto renouncing his antisemitism

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may not be wrong (to your point, no one knows), but is such a cynical approach beneficial?

It's cynical to support the firing of an executive that admits to the worst sort of extreme racism publicly as a misguided attempt to build his own brand? Lol

Sometimes I think the only reason platitudes like “bring your whole self to work” exist is just to weed out ppl who are dumb enough to fall for it. Never break the act if you wanna stay on top it seems.

Re: Google parts with Cloud VP over his manifesto renouncing his antisemitism

#85
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you surround an anthill, you can just stomp on it, though. Corporate political correctness is built on the perceived certainty of being so far on the winning side of history that any other point of view isn't worth considering.

Progress in the long run may seem inevitable, but certainty of victory can be dangerous in the short to medium term. Whig history ignores the possibility of setbacks. Progressive democracies have fallen to authoritarian dictatorships in the past, and there will likely be more examples in the future. Hubris is not your friend.

Just a few days ago, there was a submission on HN about an Ancient Greek city where one side was so totally sure about its victory that it committed unspeakable crimes on the losing side - only to get whacked once a foreign military force allied with the losers arrived and the still surviving ones suddenly had a chance of revenge.

Re: Google parts with Cloud VP over his manifesto renouncing his antisemitism

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we're going to get to the point where people only share their views on sensitive manners in anonymous / pseudo-anonymous forums, so they can't be linked to you. That's not necessarily terrible.

I think it is terrible for society in the long term. We can post anonymously for now, but that may become much more difficult in the future. We need to encourage a society that takes words into context, and assumes good faith instead of imagining the worst possible interpretation of everything. Similarly, we need to encourage people changing their views. Casting out anyone who said something bad, ever, independent of…

Great, so, you post that you used to hate all Vikings... And you're my manager. And now I sue the company because I didn't get a raise, back in the time before the post.

You can't pretend there are no consequences to stating you have feelings that can impact other people. Even if what you're claiming is that you're reformed.

"I'm a recovering alcoholic," says the doctor. "Great!" say all of the lawyers with malpractice lawsuits against the doctor. You just can't avoid those consequences.

People will always hold horrible views. That's not going to change.

Of course there's an incentive to change your opinion - growth. If you need to PERFORM that you've grown, then I think that's pretty dangerous attention seeking. If you want to make a livelihood out of being a leader, where your transformation is part of your credentials, then yes, that's a risk, which you have to calculate.

> That doesn't really help address the underlying issues of racism, -isms, etc, at all....

I'm not really convinced talking does address those. Especially not on social media. I think people have to get to know each other on a personal basis.

It's funny to me how we all run so hot and cold on social media. Right now, y'all are defending social media, in the context of performing that you're reformed on some topic.

Also, so much of this is tied up in the context of employee / employer relationships. Like, if you don't work for a company, you're probably way more free to express your views, to a point.

Like for instance, Bill Cosby wants to do a stand-up tour.

Should he be "cancelled"?

If you feel strongly no, then, well, I guess you can support venues that want to host him.

Some companies are going to shun people like this VP. Maybe you want to support companies that don't.

Or what about the Google Creep [1]?

How much should he have to apologize, or take sensitivity training, etc, before you'd hire him at a company where he'd be in touch with sensitive user information? We're all going to have different answers to that. We can't come up with one rule. So, maybe you want to support companies that give people like him a second chance. I don't feel that need.

There's lots of other parameters that are way more important to me, in evaluating companies I want to do business with, than their being responsible for managing the healing and forgiving process for people who made public mistakes that put the companies they worked for in potentially hot legal water.

[1] : https://gawker.com/5637234/gcreep-google-engineer-stalked-te...

Re: Google parts with Cloud VP over his manifesto renouncing his antisemitism

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, I'll start off by saying - I work at google, in cloud, but not for this person, I don't know anything about him, and this is my own opinion. I think if someone had asked him at an all hands for his position on the israel palestine conflict, and he said something like: "I grew up in a strict Egyptian Muslim household, indoctrinated to hate Israel and Jews, and it wasn't until I was exposed to jewish people and bec…

I didn't see it that way at all. Maybe because my home country has border issues and we've dealt with otherization from a young age. Certainly, nothing like the conflict he refers to, but I guess I have some personal context. I see someone who was genuinely baffled at the thought that there are good people of a particular ethnicity, when he was brainwashed completely to the opposite. The point about the 0.1% DNA is a…

Obviously everyone is free to read and interpret something however they wish. But to your point:

> I see someone who was genuinely baffled at the thought that there are good people of a particular ethnicity, when he was brainwashed completely to the opposite.

As I think I said at the top of my comment, if he had stopped there, I don't think there would have been as much hay to make (though that's an unknowable). Personally I found the writing of that first section awkward, and a little uncomfortable (man, he really likes to emphasize just how much he hated jews), but I at least can understand the desire to share a personal transformation.

Site note: Perhaps the jaunty tone of it is part of what I find off-putting? It's got a very "ho ho ho, man, wasn't that a crazy time" kind of tone, when other similar personal transformations that I've read are grounds for regret and reflection. Not that someone has to wear a hairshirt for every past belief they realized was wrong, but this one seemed inappropriately casual.

But the problem that I have with the piece is really the rest of it - I think it's a little patronizing, I think using 23andme data to justify your positions is problematic, and I think paragraph after paragraph you see someone expounding at length on their ideas about very complex subjects, subjects that are near and dear to people's identities and politics. It's not a dialogue, it's not a jumping off point for a discussion, it's just a polemic.

Even that, though ill-advised, probably could be forgiveable (after all, this bubbled up a while ago - the post was published over a month ago), but according to the article instead of taking feedback and starting a discussion, he continued to argue the same points that his team was telling him were offensive. That's not great leadership, that's not listening to the team, that's not navigating a complex situation with grace. He didn't have to just fall on his sword and apoloogize, but as a VP you have to at least be thoughtful about how you handle these situations.

Heck, I'm not even a VP, and I've had to deal with these types of very complex political and personal issues in the workplace, and I handled it better than this guy did. Leadership is listening, understanding, engaging respectfully, and disagreeing where appropriate. It doesn't sound like that's what was happening here.

> As an aside, I think telling someone "nobody asked you for your opinion" is pretty rude.

My point is, it's not like someone asked him to articulate his thoughts on the Israel-Palestine conflict and he just handled it badly. He chose to wade into one of the most polarizing and complicated topics, not just in a casual offhand comment, but in a >10k word essay that ranged from his own personal beliefs, to israeli oppression, to whether israel is a democracy, to his own status as a jew. All of these topics are highly polarizing and people have very strong opinions about them. He's entitled to his opinions, but publishing them to the world and then doubling down on them when confronted with the reaction is an unforced error. He should have known better.

> This cancel culture is getting crazy.

Look, I've only managed teams 1/10th the size of what he was managing, and even I know that posting something like this online is ill-advised and inappropriate, and I would never do it. If someone asks me privately what my beliefs are on a particular topic, I'm happy to have the discussion - but I'm not going to go to my audience of 12k followers on linkedin and proclaim them, as he did. If someone wrote something years ago that pops up, I'm usually onboard with forgiving them, because people say stupid things and people change. But respecting your team and the people you work with means recognizing that there are different beliefs and values and that the words you say matter.

Re: Google parts with Cloud VP over his manifesto renouncing his antisemitism

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't ask, don't tell: racism edition

Except being racist is bad and being gay isn't.

This is just our current social construction. There was a time right-here in the US when those were reversed. And there are societies right now where those are reversed.

Re: Google parts with Cloud VP over his manifesto renouncing his antisemitism

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may not be wrong (to your point, no one knows), but is such a cynical approach beneficial?

It's extremely beneficial to avoid uproar and having your emotions manipulated. Knowing when someone may be taking advantage of an absence of information helps you focus on real issues and not manufactured ones

You are basically saying do not get upset about this because maybe it is manipulation. But if it turns out it isn't manipulation, you have successfully tamped down outrage over something that was actually deserving it?
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