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Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

bbc.co.uk

221–230 of 234 posts

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You cannot assume the fellow is innocent. A government, particularly an ally, cannot be reckless with accusations.

What seems much more likely to me is that the Japanese government and the Japanese management of Nissan felt they had a right to controlling ownership of Nissan after that had been purchased and turned around by Ghosn. In the circumstance, if that's what they wanted, then they should have bought it back rather than setting up a kangaroo court. I suspect from now on companies with subsidiaries in Japan will be sure th…

> What seems much more likely to me...

Maybe. All our information comes from journalists, who occasionally gets things wrong. After that, it's down to belief. We haven't seen the evidence nor any counter evidence. All we have is a biased article.

For me, leaving aside all of the dramatic details, we have the word of a Lebanese business man and his supporters versus the word of the Japanese government and the board of Nissan. Perhaps naive, but I'd tend to believe the Japanese government over some rando. It's not a banana republic over there. The government does not habitually collude with natives to squeeze foreigners. It's not like the UAE. Agreed, that's not evidence of anything, but as long as we're just talking "what seems much more likely" - what seems much more likely to me, is that the guy embezzled, got caught, had to flee the country and - unlike so many of these dreary, sordid little tales - he caught the ear of a sympathetic journalist to spin a sympathetic tale of escape and adventure.

Well, he will be tried in absentio if that's allowed in Japan, and the evidence against him will be entered into the public record. Then maybe we'll each have a better idea of what we're talking about.

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing I can't believe is that Japan's trading partners like USA, Canada, UK, Europe etc. haven't said boo about this outrageous miscarriage of justice in which the Japanese government has been complicit. As for as I know not one government has spoken out publicly.

Carlos Ghosn is a small potato. His only connection to those countries you listed is France. Does he have connections with French politicians? Probably not.

Renault is partly owned by the French state though.

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#223

So, the justice system in Japan enforces additional restrictions after a person is out on bail ? He couldn't meet his wife seems like an unreasonable condition for someone out on bail. Also, is the justice system in Japan so backed up that he would have to wait years for it go to trial ?

If you ever thought the American justice system is bad, look into the Japanese one. The whole system is designed to make you confess and apologize. They will literally lie to you and tell you it will all go away if you sign the confession paperwork. You dont get a lawyer while they do this, and they get to keep you for quite a bit of time before you get a lawyer. They also dont do trial by jury, but inquisitorial jud…

>During an edition of BBC's Timewatch program, an eyewitness described the carnage in Cell Block 4. They saw an inmate held up in front of a window; he was being tortured by using a blowtorch on his face and eyes until his head exploded. Another story was about Mario Urioste, who was jailed for shoplifting. He was originally placed by officers in a violent unit where he was gang-raped by seven inmates. Mario had filed a lawsuit against his rapists, so prison officials had housed him in Cell Block 4 for his own protection. Urioste was one of the targets for revenge. His body was found hanged, with his throat cut and his dismembered genitals stuffed into his mouth.

>Men were killed with piping, work tools, and crude homemade knives called shanks. One man was partially decapitated after being thrown over the second-tier balcony with a noose around his neck. The corpse was then dragged down and hacked up. A fire had been set in the gymnasium to burn a pile of corpses, but it had gotten out of control and burned through the roof. Besides the fire that had been set in the Psychology Wing, a fire was also set in the Protestant Chapel. The Protestant Chaplain had been nicknamed "Ax Handle" for his participation in the Night of the Ax Handles four years earlier. The Catholic Chapel next door was left untouched. Situated across the hall from the main control center, the prison library also was only touched by smoke. A third fire had been set in the records office, burning all records that could have been used as evidence related to the prisoners' civil rights claims in the Duran Consent Decree.

I think the country that has a justice system where being blowtorched until your brain explodes is a possible consequence of detention compares unfavorably to the country that has zero prison riots. It's also worth noting that the Human Rights Watch report on prison conditions in Japan contains zero mentions of the word "rape"—let alone "gang rape". Is it so hard to admit that they have to be doing something right?

Put yourselves in the shoes of a Japanese citizen—what could possibly make you look at American prison conditions and think "wow, I wish we had that instead", riots, gang rape, drugs, and all? What aspects of Japanese justice are so intolerable that they make all "palatial" by comparison? It's true that Japanese guards are strict—are Supermax guards so much nicer?

I think the country that has the highest incarceration in the world could learn something from the country that enjoys the lowest incarceration rate in the developed world. Whether it's civilization arrogance or some pathological aversion to discipline, I don't know—but it seems bizarre to me that a prison system where you could end up with a mouthful of your own severed genitals could serve as a model to anyone.

As for confessions, here's another example of the superior American way.

>Several hours into the interrogation, Scott told the detectives he thought he needed a lawyer, an attempt to invoke his constitutional right to have an attorney present during questioning. But APD detectives testified last week they believed Scott was only thinking about asking for a lawyer—the same response they gave at Springsteen's trial last summer. When Springsteen asked about a lawyer during his interrogation, detectives left the room. When they returned, they promptly changed the subject.

>And in the Scott interrogation's most infamous moment, Detective Merrill brought a revolver into the interrogation room to "help" Scott remember what he might've done that night at the yogurt shop through some "role playing." Gun in hand, Merrill walked around, then stood behind Scott and jabbed him in the head with what appeared to be the barrel of the gun. Merrill testified that it wasn't the gun but his finger. Nonetheless, the few seconds of video are startling. While the state could argue that the moment occurred well into the confession and couldn't have affected previous admissions, what does it take to render a confession false?

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#224
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm genuinely curious to know how you think about that line. What is the transgression here in your mind? Merely mentioning that genes affect behavior is not allowed (even though it's true, or maybe it doesn't matter if it's true), or you actually believe the claim "genes affect behavior within the human species" is false? I agree with you that we can't tell from a single gene whether someone is likely to be a crimin…

Genes are certainly affecting the behavior somehow. That doesn't mean they are relevant. Cultural and educational factors have certainly a much bigger impact on behavior than any gene related effects. Example of flawed reasoning similar to yours: genes have probably an impact on the way we speak (it's impacting the shape of our tongue somehow, etc etc). So maybe the French have their accent due to some genetic factor…

If genes are affecting behavior [I assume you mean variation within the species], then why wouldn't they be relevant? Relevant to what?

I agree culture is the biggie (education is part of culture).

Your example gets at a correlation that can be used to make good predictions. Better-than-chance bets. The example I gave with drug addiction supposes the reader already believes that genes have a causal relationship with drug addiction. That is, a propensity to be, say, an alcoholic can be in your genome and not a result of environmental factors.

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#225
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think most people know that Asians in the US commit less crime than other races. As for why, there are probably cultural reasons.

Or rather economic reasons, the difference between the median income for Asian Americans is about the same as the difference between white people and African Americans.

Or both! Or a bunch of other stuff too!

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would be the non-racist thing to do?

Actually look for the real factors beyond "ethnicity".

My honest read here, and I really wish to emphasize that this is honest feedback and not an attempt to put you down, is that you don't have a solid grasp of causation vs. correlation.

I appreciate you engaging. It's fun and important to talk about stuff like this.

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#227
post #81

All luggage is supposed to undergo a security check in an X-ray machine. This is true for private jets as well. I am curious how it played out in this particular case. Did it go through an X-ray machine or not? If yes, how did they mistook a human for a musical instrument?

[deleted]

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#228
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an interesting interview. Too bad the editing of the video leaves a bit to be desired: it seems to cut out parts and skip in such a way that it's hard to tell what exactly the lawyer originally said, and how much the editing affects how you understand what was said. The editing is probably benign in intention, but I would much rather hear a longer and perhaps more convoluted explanation than something cut-for-…

I am not sure what you are driving at. Of course we all can do with a detailed interview with all nuances explained but obviously given the sensitive subject matter, it would be almost impossible to do/get right. Given that the interviewer is not a professional journalist/investigator (i.e. any editorial limitations, legal or otherwise, he might have been forced to work with), he has done a commendable job of highlig…

I'm not really driving at anything. I'd just feel more comfortable with less cutting when discussing a matter where details could be important.

I didn't really find any problems with comprehension either. I'm just not sure if the understanding I get is affected by editing.

I appreciate the effort to explain the system in general, and I suppose also from a foreigner or tourist point of view. I have been to Japan twice, and while I'm not the type that's likely to get into trouble, it's always good to understand the culture you're visiting.

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#229
post #219

I don't understand. This guy fled the justice system of a democracy, and we are telling the story as if he were the hero escaping the gulag of some authoritarian country. Why do we tell his story as if it was "good" ?

It is worth noting that he is the one telling the story here.

Why is he being given a platform by the BBC though

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#230
post #5
post #3

How come this fucker gets to not only brag about evading justice, in stead of being rightly vilified for it, but is even given a platform to brag from by the most prestigious of media corporations?!? Why hasn't whatever country he's in -- Britain? -- clapped him in irons and extradited him the hell back to Japan? Are they even officially condoning criminals escaping justice as long as they're rich, these days? (Or is…

> Lebanon does not have an extradition treaty with Japan so Mr Ghosn has been allowed to remain there.

Second try, having calmed down a little:

Yes, sure, he's run off to some country that has no extradition (and which conveniently for him also happens to be his native country). But still: So what -- why is this feted in international media, and not condemned? Other criminals that hare off to avoid extradition are not written up as heroes, are they? Or should they be?

The only two exceptions that come to mind are

a) Ronnie Biggs -- but the semi-cultish veneration this simple (and by all accounts rather bumbling) train robber received from large parts of the British public is, AIUI, now mostly (and IMO quite rightly) regarded as misguided; and

b) Edward Snowden. But he blew the whistle on important wrongdoings by a superpower's military -- he did not commit any crime for personal gain.

What Ghosn did was the exact opposite: cooking corporate bookkeeping, fiddling his taxes, and generally enriching himself. He is, AFAICS, just a modern-day John DeLorean, only on a much grander scale. So I still really, really just don't get it: YTF is this so widely reported on in such approving tones? He's a criminal evading justice. Surely this ought to be deplored, not revered?

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