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Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#191

Post by staticman2 »

NoImmatureAdHom wrote: post #142
alksjdalkj wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would bet that Japanese in the U.S. evince rates of criminality more similar to those of Japanese in Japan than to the rest of American society What makes you believe that? If true, what might cause that to be the case?

I've realized we're probably confused about whether we're talking about Japanese in America vs. Japanese-Americans. I was talking about Japanese in America (the article is about a foreigner in Japan), but I'd make roughly the same claims in either case. Empirically, I would bet that both Japanese in America and Japanese-Americans both show rates of criminality more similar to Japan's than to the remainder of the U.S.…

Given this logic if America had a policy of throwing everyone with blond hair in jail for "hair crimes" you would conclude it is a fairer system than Japan's if Japanese-Americans had a lower incarceration rate than Japanese people in Japan.

That's some heroic effort in defense of America's high incarceration rate.

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#192

Post by NoImmatureAdHom »

staticman2 wrote: post #191
NoImmatureAdHom wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've realized we're probably confused about whether we're talking about Japanese in America vs. Japanese-Americans. I was talking about Japanese in America (the article is about a foreigner in Japan), but I'd make roughly the same claims in either case. Empirically, I would bet that both Japanese in America and Japanese-Americans both show rates of criminality more similar to Japan's than to the remainder of the U.S.…

Given this logic if America had a policy of throwing everyone with blond hair in jail for "hair crimes" you would conclude it is a fairer system than Japan's if Japanese-Americans had a lower incarceration rate than Japanese people in Japan. That's some heroic effort in defense of America's high incarceration rate.

...I didn't make any claims at all about fairness. What?

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#193

Post by yccs27 »

Asooka wrote: post #128
Clewza313 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So she was falsely accused, detained for a week, and released with apparently no consequences? That's not great, but it's hardly a uniquely Japanese horror story either. For comparison, back in the Land of the Free, here's a kid in New York who was jailed for three years on Rikers Island for a similar false accusation of theft: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/10/06/before-the-law

Yes, but that case is egregious by American standards, while the woman's case is everyday occurrence in Japan.

I mean, the whole argument is based on two anecdotes, which show that both systems can be excessively unfair. We'd need at least some numbers to talk about "everyday occurrences" or not.

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#194

Post by CalChris »

bzbarsky wrote: post #150
CalChris wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Martha Stewart went to prison for insider trading to avoid a loss of $45,673. She was worth in the hundreds of millions at the time.

Martha Stewart went to prison for lying to federal investigators and obstruction of justice, not for insider trading. The "insider trading" (not actually a crime; the actual criminal thing in such cases tends to be "securities fraud") charges were variously dropped or dismissed by the court, depending on the charge. So she was actually innocent (in the legal system sense, at least) of the crime she was initially accu…

That's a few decimal places down from the point. Stewart was sentenced to five months of prison for what was a $45,673 crime which she then later had to repay with interest. She was worth 100s of millions at the time.

The point was that it's not impossible, merely because Ghosn was rich, that he didn't do the deed.

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#195

Post by NoImmatureAdHom »

forty wrote: post #178
NoImmatureAdHom wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've realized we're probably confused about whether we're talking about Japanese in America vs. Japanese-Americans. I was talking about Japanese in America (the article is about a foreigner in Japan), but I'd make roughly the same claims in either case. Empirically, I would bet that both Japanese in America and Japanese-Americans both show rates of criminality more similar to Japan's than to the remainder of the U.S.…

I think listing genes is probably crossing the line. It's not like there is a gene for crime that some category of people would have more or less...

I'm genuinely curious to know how you think about that line. What is the transgression here in your mind? Merely mentioning that genes affect behavior is not allowed (even though it's true, or maybe it doesn't matter if it's true), or you actually believe the claim "genes affect behavior within the human species" is false?

I agree with you that we can't tell from a single gene whether someone is likely to be a criminal or not. I'd like you to consider this example, where hopefully I only use premises you already believe:

Some people are predisposed to becoming addicted to drugs. We can make better-than-chance bets about who these people are based on their genomes. We also know that people who are addicted to drugs are more likely to be on the wrong side of the law (and, sadly, are often by definition on the wrong side of the law). So, we conclude that, given someone's genome, we can make better-than-chance bets about that person's likelihood of being on the wrong side of the law.

It's a simplistic example, but hopefully that helps get the idea across. Doing this sort of thing isn't super practical right now, but it will be soon! [oh boy.]

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#196

Post by user-the-name »

NoImmatureAdHom wrote: post #176
user-the-name wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it is the question that is racist. The assumption that because of your ethnicity, you would have some kind of specific level of criminality. That is extremely racist.

You're assuming a causal relationship when the claim is correlational. The claim is not that because of a person's ethnicity that person will commit crimes at a certain rate, the claim is that you can make a good guess about criminality based on ethnicity. That is to say, there is a correlation. Which is unambiguously true--just look up the numbers. Only takes a moment. In either case, whether it's racist or not is i…

> the claim is that you can make a good guess about criminality based on ethnicity

Yes. That is the claim that is racist.

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#197

Post by csomar »

dehrmann wrote: post #180
csomar wrote: post #164

I think most people missed the most important part of the story > The large box carrying Ghosn was never x-rayed or checked by customs officials, because it was too big to fit inside the x-ray machine The security theater we have to go through in the airport is just that: a pathetic security theater. You have a large box, that's definitively something that you gotta check. If you can't x-ray it, then at least open it…

You're conflating the role of TSA (or Japan's equivalent) with customs. The security risk of taking an uninspected box on a private jet is pretty low, and private jets routinely have fewer security checks. On the customs side, they're usually less concerned with someone smuggling something out of the country than smuggling something in. About the only thing they would have cared about leaving the country like that on…

I don't think you could be right. There are lots of things that could be smuggled out of a country at all times: Precious metals, precious art and historical artifacts, Money and Drugs, etc...

A country does care about what is coming out of its territory. If you have a high incidence of drugs coming out of Japan, the country will be flagged by the other countries. This makes shipping both expensive and difficult.

> The security risk of taking an uninspected box on a private jet is pretty low, and private jets routinely have fewer security checks.

I don't have the stats, but I'd argue that on a % basis, it's less likely that a single traveler is carrying something illegal than a private jet owner. I think the reason private jet owner do not get "scanned" is their status. That would annoy these persons and Japan (and most countries) do not want to annoy them.

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#198

Post by retrac »

garmaine wrote: post #146
Goety wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To top it off Japan extradited US citizens for doing something not considered a crime in Japan! In what world does that happen?

That’s the nature of extradition. Edit: Why the downvotes? “If requested by the charging state, US states and territories must extradite anyone charged with a felony, misdemeanor, or even petty offense in another US state or territory, even if the offense is not a crime in the custodial state.” As far as I’m aware this holds true of international extradition too. That’s kinda the whole point—you can’t escape justice…

I did not downvote, but I suspect they're from your attempt to compare to domestic American law. While tempting, it's a misleading comparison here. US states do that because the US constitution has the "full faith and credit" clause requiring them to acknowledge and cooperate with the legal processes of other states. There is no equivalent internationally.

Dual criminality is a standard provision in most (nearly all? all?) extradition treaties. Canada's treaty with the USA for example says:

> Persons shall be delivered up according to the provisions of this Treaty for any of the offenses listed in the Schedule annexed to this Treaty, which is an integral part of this Treaty, provided these offenses are punishable by the laws of both Contracting Parties by a term of imprisonment exceeding one year.

and the US-Japan treaty says:

> Extradition shall be granted in accordance with the provisions of this Treaty for any offense listed in the Schedule annexed to this Treaty, which forms an integral part of this Treaty, when such an offense is punishable by the laws of both Contracting Parties by death, by life imprisonment, or by deprivation of liberty for a period of more than one year [...]

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#199

Post by NoImmatureAdHom »

user-the-name wrote: post #196
NoImmatureAdHom wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're assuming a causal relationship when the claim is correlational. The claim is not that because of a person's ethnicity that person will commit crimes at a certain rate, the claim is that you can make a good guess about criminality based on ethnicity. That is to say, there is a correlation. Which is unambiguously true--just look up the numbers. Only takes a moment. In either case, whether it's racist or not is i…

> the claim is that you can make a good guess about criminality based on ethnicity Yes. That is the claim that is racist.

It is empirically true. It is, of course, possible for things to be both true and racist, for some definition of racist.

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#200

Post by user-the-name »

NoImmatureAdHom wrote: post #199
user-the-name wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the claim is that you can make a good guess about criminality based on ethnicity Yes. That is the claim that is racist.

It is empirically true. It is, of course, possible for things to be both true and racist, for some definition of racist.

The fact that you just stop the train of thought there is the racist part.
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