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Of course MS Windows is better It has Visual Studio

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Re: Of course MS Windows is better It has Visual Studio

#21

Post by cstejerean »

trezor wrote: post #11
axod wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can code java extremely well just using a text editor (Shock horror!) The idea you can't, or that you'll be less productive than an IDE user is just idiotic. What has the language got to do with anything? Yes, java is sometimes verbose, so? If most of your time is spent typing, you're doing it wrong IMHO, not matter how verbose the language.

The author suggested you should change not only the toolset you use, but also the languages. That makes it more than a light switch, and will probably interfere with getting work done. Since, you know, many companies have standards about which languages and platforms they stick to.

Fine, don't change the language. Keep using the same thing for 10 years until it becomes obsolete and then wonder why you're unemployed (hint: nothing to do with outsourcing).

Re: Of course MS Windows is better It has Visual Studio

#22

Post by pmorici »

chandler wrote: post #12
trezor wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. The article pretty much reveals that the author has never used a good IDE like Visual Studio for anything besides the obvious like adding new class-files, making some GUIs and then running a compile. I bet he didn't even customize the default layout, panels and toolbars. My list of top 3 features in Visual Studio, and I suspect most of them to be in Eclipse as well: 1) The built in debugger which can be invok…

Reading these posts about the "excellent, bug free" VS development environment: in my experience, this isn't quite the truth. I've used VS6 since the late 90's, mostly on small projects (less than ~10 000 lines, four or five source files) until 2004, where I signed up to work maintenance on what is essentially a very large codebase (thousands of source files, between 500-50 000 lines per file). In 2006, my frustratio…

50,000 lines in one file? Who does that.

Re: Of course MS Windows is better It has Visual Studio

#23

Post by cstejerean »

pmorici wrote: post #20
trezor wrote: post #6

Expand your horizons a little. Learn to use Vim or Emacs, then spend a year doing serious development in something like Ruby instead of C# or Java, and do it in a Unix-like user environment. So does the author suggest anyone working with Java or C# should quit their job? Or does working with vim also provide you with an alternate space-time continuum which allows you to "just" spend one year doing doing something els…

"serious development in something like Ruby " As if Ruby is a more "serious" language than Java or C#?

I don't think doing serious development in Ruby has anything to do with Ruby being a more serious language. The point is to use it for a real project as opposed to yet another blog in X minutes.

Re: Of course MS Windows is better It has Visual Studio

#24

Post by axod »

cstejerean wrote: post #21
trezor wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author suggested you should change not only the toolset you use, but also the languages. That makes it more than a light switch, and will probably interfere with getting work done. Since, you know, many companies have standards about which languages and platforms they stick to.

Fine, don't change the language. Keep using the same thing for 10 years until it becomes obsolete and then wonder why you're unemployed (hint: nothing to do with outsourcing).

Is lisp obsolete yet?

Re: Of course MS Windows is better It has Visual Studio

#25

Post by babul »

axod wrote: post #18
babul wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using a good IDE does make you more productive. Taking the java example, most people will accomplish more using IntelliJ-IDEA than Notepad. A good IDE allows you more freedom to explore ideas and experiment faster (especially when doing something like GUI design, debugging using statefull variable inspection, or just learning new features with intellisense/autocomplete), though I'd agree most of your time should be s…

I couldn't disagree more. What magical feature of an IDE "allows you more freedom to explore ideas and experiment faster"? Most people might write more lines of code or produce more classes in an IDE than text editor in Java, but most people aren't good programmers. Lines of code and number of classes often bear no relationship to productivity. Essentially though, everyone uses an 'IDE', they just don't call it that.…

> What magical feature of an IDE "allows you more freedom to explore ideas and experiment faster"?

Refactoring.

Code completion/validation/formatting (make fewer errors, and reformat external code to suit you).

GUI design (a lot of times you will have to make GUIs, no point in avoiding it).

Code analysis (on-the-fly code analysis and error-detection (syntax, compile, and run-time) = less creep-in errors, easier to spot errors earlier, and less compiles = more productivity).

Performance bottleneck detection.

Testing made easier (simpler an faster to build and do unit/integration/etc. tests)

Framework/Design-Pattern skeletons (got an idea, think pattern X may help, try it out quickly = make a good/bad decision faster).

Teamwork features (version control, changelist management, build management etc. made easier).

Etc. Etc.

Who said anything about more LOC being the/a measure of productivity?

Re: Of course MS Windows is better It has Visual Studio

#26

Post by axod »

babul wrote: post #25
axod wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I couldn't disagree more. What magical feature of an IDE "allows you more freedom to explore ideas and experiment faster"? Most people might write more lines of code or produce more classes in an IDE than text editor in Java, but most people aren't good programmers. Lines of code and number of classes often bear no relationship to productivity. Essentially though, everyone uses an 'IDE', they just don't call it that.…

> What magical feature of an IDE "allows you more freedom to explore ideas and experiment faster"? Refactoring. Code completion/validation/formatting (make fewer errors, and reformat external code to suit you). GUI design (a lot of times you will have to make GUIs, no point in avoiding it). Code analysis (on-the-fly code analysis and error-detection (syntax, compile, and run-time) = less creep-in errors, easier to sp…

I think it's best to agree to strongly disagree :)

An ex-coworker was arguing how great IDEs are, his comment being "The IDE makes it so you don't have to think" I think that's the best argument against IDEs I've heard so far.

Re: Of course MS Windows is better It has Visual Studio

#27

Post by babul »

axod wrote: post #26
babul wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What magical feature of an IDE "allows you more freedom to explore ideas and experiment faster"? Refactoring. Code completion/validation/formatting (make fewer errors, and reformat external code to suit you). GUI design (a lot of times you will have to make GUIs, no point in avoiding it). Code analysis (on-the-fly code analysis and error-detection (syntax, compile, and run-time) = less creep-in errors, easier to sp…

I think it's best to agree to strongly disagree :) An ex-coworker was arguing how great IDEs are, his comment being "The IDE makes it so you don't have to think" I think that's the best argument against IDEs I've heard so far.

Okay :)

If we ever meet in person, I'll buy you a beer/coffee/meal, and we can debate such things as in general I'm liking the comments you make on a multitude of topics.

An IDE is just a tool and like any good tool can help those that don't want to think, think less, and for those that do, think more?

Re: Of course MS Windows is better It has Visual Studio

#28

Post by Maro »

sysop073 wrote: post #19
Maro wrote: post #5

I think UNIX users, seeing they're never going to get something as kickass as VS simply adopted an elitist approach and claim that for various reasons (language, vi, emacs) they don't even need one. The benefits of VS are obvious: - tabbed: (could you live without a tabbed browser?), also control+tab brings up a smart switcher - search: suppose you have a large project and are looking for a function call, irrespectiv…

I am almost positive based on this that you've never opened Visual Studio before. VS has lots of really helpful and useful features; the first ones that come to mind are not "tabbed" and "search". Most of the things you listed there exist in virtually every text editor there is besides Notepad

Well, I have used VS in a professional environment (working at a semi-large software house). Part of the point I was trying to make is that VS is not just great as an IDE, it is also great as an editor, and that these particular features do not exist in any UNIX/MacOS I have come across.

Your claim that most of the things exist in virtually every editor is simply not true --- many editors have many features, but none have all the features AND work well (fast, stable, etc.). E.g. Eclipse has most of the features, but I find it rather sluggish.

Saying things like "I am almost positive ... you've never opened VS before" is a personal attack, childish and not true.

Re: Of course MS Windows is better It has Visual Studio

#29

Post by chandler »

pmorici wrote: post #22
chandler wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading these posts about the "excellent, bug free" VS development environment: in my experience, this isn't quite the truth. I've used VS6 since the late 90's, mostly on small projects (less than ~10 000 lines, four or five source files) until 2004, where I signed up to work maintenance on what is essentially a very large codebase (thousands of source files, between 500-50 000 lines per file). In 2006, my frustratio…

50,000 lines in one file? Who does that.

People who use IDEs that add code for them.

Re: Of course MS Windows is better It has Visual Studio

#30

Post by Maro »

DarkShikari wrote: post #8
Maro wrote: post #5

I think UNIX users, seeing they're never going to get something as kickass as VS simply adopted an elitist approach and claim that for various reasons (language, vi, emacs) they don't even need one. The benefits of VS are obvious: - tabbed: (could you live without a tabbed browser?), also control+tab brings up a smart switcher - search: suppose you have a large project and are looking for a function call, irrespectiv…

Given what features you describe as "benefits of VS", it sounds like you haven't actually used any of the other editors you claim it is better than, since they have most of the same features. I'd guess most UNIX programmers have used Visual Studio at some point in their programming life (its hard to avoid it!), and the reason they don't like it is because their experience wasn't very good. I used Visual Studio for a…

For the last several months, in an attempt to use the Mac OS that came with my Macbook I've been trying out text-editors and IDEs available for this platform as a replacement for Visual Studio, in an attempt not to broaden my personal horizon and not be a platform-nazi. (Okay, MacOS is not UNIX..) So your claim is false, I actually have tried out many other tools to reach the approximate conclusion I described in the original post. I'd be happy to report that I found a good replacement as it would weaken my "dependence" on a particular platform (Windows).
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