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Of course MS Windows is better It has Visual Studio

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Re: Of course MS Windows is better It has Visual Studio

#11
post #9
post #6

Expand your horizons a little. Learn to use Vim or Emacs, then spend a year doing serious development in something like Ruby instead of C# or Java, and do it in a Unix-like user environment. So does the author suggest anyone working with Java or C# should quit their job? Or does working with vim also provide you with an alternate space-time continuum which allows you to "just" spend one year doing doing something els…

You can code java extremely well just using a text editor (Shock horror!) The idea you can't, or that you'll be less productive than an IDE user is just idiotic. What has the language got to do with anything? Yes, java is sometimes verbose, so? If most of your time is spent typing, you're doing it wrong IMHO, not matter how verbose the language.

The author suggested you should change not only the toolset you use, but also the languages.

That makes it more than a light switch, and will probably interfere with getting work done. Since, you know, many companies have standards about which languages and platforms they stick to.

Re: Of course MS Windows is better It has Visual Studio

#12
post #7
post #2

As a person that started programming on X11 in the late 80s and still uses vim daily, I can't think of a better environment than Visual Studio (possibly with the vi plugin) for programming. It is actually sad that guys like the author of this post and some hardcore Linux geeks pride themselves in the lack of good IDEs. The two main arguments are: 1) C# needs more boilerplate class code than C++ or other languages. Wr…

Agreed. The article pretty much reveals that the author has never used a good IDE like Visual Studio for anything besides the obvious like adding new class-files, making some GUIs and then running a compile. I bet he didn't even customize the default layout, panels and toolbars. My list of top 3 features in Visual Studio, and I suspect most of them to be in Eclipse as well: 1) The built in debugger which can be invok…

Reading these posts about the "excellent, bug free" VS development environment: in my experience, this isn't quite the truth.

I've used VS6 since the late 90's, mostly on small projects (less than ~10 000 lines, four or five source files) until 2004, where I signed up to work maintenance on what is essentially a very large codebase (thousands of source files, between 500-50 000 lines per file). In 2006, my frustration with VS6's inability to handle a codebase of this magnitude finally convinced me to try a different IDE toolset. My specific complaints:

- Starting VS6 is slow, and brings the computer to a halt.

- Compiling & linking through the IDE is slow, and brings my computer to a halt. This doesn't happen when run from the commandline, nor, as follows, from a subprocess within Emacs.

- Intellisense stops working a lot; nothing breaks programming flow like having your favorite crutch be unavailable for half the methods (this seems to affect large files more than small). Incidentally, though Emacs has Intellisense type functionality, I much prefer the generic completion available in Emacs/Vim (M-/ in Emacs, Ctrl-N in Vim), as it works within comments and for undefined/undeclared (and unprocessed) structures.

- The method navigation panel fails often, with it listing a method correctly, but displaying "method not found" when selected (the workaround is to select different methods until one is found, then jump around the file for the desired method). I suspect this is related to the parser not handling default arguments correctly in certain cases.

Finally, VS is the only application that has blue-screened my XP machine (this happened only twice, however, and wasn't involved in my decision to migrate to a different toolset).

Regarding software, either you bend software to meet your needs, or it bends you to meet its limitations. Unfortunately, because VS has a high difficulty regarding the former, I found I was consistently having to integrate workarounds into my day to day coding practices.

Re: Of course MS Windows is better It has Visual Studio

#13
post #6

Expand your horizons a little. Learn to use Vim or Emacs, then spend a year doing serious development in something like Ruby instead of C# or Java, and do it in a Unix-like user environment. So does the author suggest anyone working with Java or C# should quit their job? Or does working with vim also provide you with an alternate space-time continuum which allows you to "just" spend one year doing doing something els…

Do you not do any programming in your spare time? Give that a shot, and try using something other than Java or C#.

Re: Of course MS Windows is better It has Visual Studio

#14
post #10
post #6

Expand your horizons a little. Learn to use Vim or Emacs, then spend a year doing serious development in something like Ruby instead of C# or Java, and do it in a Unix-like user environment. So does the author suggest anyone working with Java or C# should quit their job? Or does working with vim also provide you with an alternate space-time continuum which allows you to "just" spend one year doing doing something els…

No. But probably Emacs does.

M-x continuum-create. Everyone knows this

Re: Of course MS Windows is better It has Visual Studio

#15
post #9
post #6

Expand your horizons a little. Learn to use Vim or Emacs, then spend a year doing serious development in something like Ruby instead of C# or Java, and do it in a Unix-like user environment. So does the author suggest anyone working with Java or C# should quit their job? Or does working with vim also provide you with an alternate space-time continuum which allows you to "just" spend one year doing doing something els…

You can code java extremely well just using a text editor (Shock horror!) The idea you can't, or that you'll be less productive than an IDE user is just idiotic. What has the language got to do with anything? Yes, java is sometimes verbose, so? If most of your time is spent typing, you're doing it wrong IMHO, not matter how verbose the language.

Using a good IDE does make you more productive. Taking the java example, most people will accomplish more using IntelliJ-IDEA than Notepad. A good IDE allows you more freedom to explore ideas and experiment faster (especially when doing something like GUI design, debugging using statefull variable inspection, or just learning new features with intellisense/autocomplete), though I'd agree most of your time should be spent thinking than typing.

Re: Of course MS Windows is better It has Visual Studio

#16
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. The article pretty much reveals that the author has never used a good IDE like Visual Studio for anything besides the obvious like adding new class-files, making some GUIs and then running a compile. I bet he didn't even customize the default layout, panels and toolbars. My list of top 3 features in Visual Studio, and I suspect most of them to be in Eclipse as well: 1) The built in debugger which can be invok…

Reading these posts about the "excellent, bug free" VS development environment: in my experience, this isn't quite the truth. I've used VS6 since the late 90's, mostly on small projects (less than ~10 000 lines, four or five source files) until 2004, where I signed up to work maintenance on what is essentially a very large codebase (thousands of source files, between 500-50 000 lines per file). In 2006, my frustratio…

I can't imagine how building is freezing your computer when using the command-line isn't; all VS does is call cl, link and mt in that order, you can procmon it and watch it happen. The Intellisense thing, on the other hand, is the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen - the official Microsoft solution is to delete the Intellisense database and restart VS, apparently it "gets corrupted over time" and they don't feel the need to look into it

Re: Of course MS Windows is better It has Visual Studio

#17
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. The article pretty much reveals that the author has never used a good IDE like Visual Studio for anything besides the obvious like adding new class-files, making some GUIs and then running a compile. I bet he didn't even customize the default layout, panels and toolbars. My list of top 3 features in Visual Studio, and I suspect most of them to be in Eclipse as well: 1) The built in debugger which can be invok…

Reading these posts about the "excellent, bug free" VS development environment: in my experience, this isn't quite the truth. I've used VS6 since the late 90's, mostly on small projects (less than ~10 000 lines, four or five source files) until 2004, where I signed up to work maintenance on what is essentially a very large codebase (thousands of source files, between 500-50 000 lines per file). In 2006, my frustratio…

You are comparing VS6 to something current, which is not fair. Lots of these hitches you've had (which I don't doubt, since I've been forced to deal with some old VB6 projects) has been fixed long time ago.

I'm not saying Visual Studio 2008 is flawless, perfect or the second coming of Christ(tm), but in general I've had very few issues with it.

Re: Of course MS Windows is better It has Visual Studio

#18
post #15
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can code java extremely well just using a text editor (Shock horror!) The idea you can't, or that you'll be less productive than an IDE user is just idiotic. What has the language got to do with anything? Yes, java is sometimes verbose, so? If most of your time is spent typing, you're doing it wrong IMHO, not matter how verbose the language.

Using a good IDE does make you more productive. Taking the java example, most people will accomplish more using IntelliJ-IDEA than Notepad. A good IDE allows you more freedom to explore ideas and experiment faster (especially when doing something like GUI design, debugging using statefull variable inspection, or just learning new features with intellisense/autocomplete), though I'd agree most of your time should be s…

I couldn't disagree more.

What magical feature of an IDE "allows you more freedom to explore ideas and experiment faster"?

Most people might write more lines of code or produce more classes in an IDE than text editor in Java, but most people aren't good programmers. Lines of code and number of classes often bear no relationship to productivity.

Essentially though, everyone uses an 'IDE', they just don't call it that... Mine is a text editor, bash shell and browser. All you need...

GUI design is a whole different kettle of fish. But a mockup builder is probably more useful for that.

Re: Of course MS Windows is better It has Visual Studio

#19
post #5

I think UNIX users, seeing they're never going to get something as kickass as VS simply adopted an elitist approach and claim that for various reasons (language, vi, emacs) they don't even need one. The benefits of VS are obvious: - tabbed: (could you live without a tabbed browser?), also control+tab brings up a smart switcher - search: suppose you have a large project and are looking for a function call, irrespectiv…

I am almost positive based on this that you've never opened Visual Studio before. VS has lots of really helpful and useful features; the first ones that come to mind are not "tabbed" and "search". Most of the things you listed there exist in virtually every text editor there is besides Notepad

Re: Of course MS Windows is better It has Visual Studio

#20
post #6

Expand your horizons a little. Learn to use Vim or Emacs, then spend a year doing serious development in something like Ruby instead of C# or Java, and do it in a Unix-like user environment. So does the author suggest anyone working with Java or C# should quit their job? Or does working with vim also provide you with an alternate space-time continuum which allows you to "just" spend one year doing doing something els…

"serious development in something like Ruby "

As if Ruby is a more "serious" language than Java or C#?

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