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A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

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Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#651

Post by asdff »

gruez wrote: post #324
zwieback wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, my pet theory is that there were two major shifts in human societies: nomadic to settlers and barter to money - everything else is details. Of course I'm an engineer and know next to nothing about anthropology.

>and barter to money >Of course I'm an engineer and know next to nothing about anthropology. You're probably wrong here. >There is no evidence, historical or contemporary, of a society in which barter is the main mode of exchange;[32] instead, non-monetary societies operated largely along the principles of gift economy and debt.[33][34][35] When barter did in fact occur, it was usually between either complete strange…

In a lot of ways having a close family or network of close friends brings you back into this gift economy. Sometimes you can do the job yourself but you just need an extra set of hands, and you return the favor in time.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#652

Post by kixiQu »

solipsism wrote: post #639
kixiQu wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's much better to communicate that you'd like a routine like this than to try to have irregular contact that you'll both have to think about and plan for. I have a weekly video call for my mom and it's very good for us.

Speak for yourself. My family is busy, and we don't like to plan -- we just decide to do something and do it. So a scheduled routine would feel like a horrible anchor to us.

While I'm definitely not going to say that it would benefit everyone, I think it's almost everyone while the relevant kid is in college. It's a lot easier to plan for a slot in your calendar as "Dad time" than to constantly reevaluate whether Dad is more important than XYZ random thing you have on the docket.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#653

Post by pjc50 »

SamReidHughes wrote: post #576
slater wrote: post #549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you name some of the left-of-center conspiracy theories? Genuinely interested.

Russiagate. Calling 1/6 an "insurrection." White supremacists. Edit: Oh, and how could I forget? Systemic racism.

Russiagate convictions: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/20/17031772/m...

Jan 6 has seen a lot of criminal charges, including literally "conspiracy"! https://www.npr.org/2021/02/09/965472049/the-capitol-siege-t... (seems to refer to https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/371 )

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#654

Post by smackeyacky »

crazygringo wrote: post #309
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Lots of people are massively fucked up and still have kids anyway, either accidentally or otherwise. And then their kids are put at a massive disadvantage in life and in human relationships." This is an interesting one, and in direct contradiction to the adage: "Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times.” My life experience agrees, tough…

I mean, that adage about hard times, while entertaining, has zero truth to it. It's not something supported by history. It just sounds cool to say is all.

Yes, it sounds more like a dystopian fascist aphorism rather than a nugget of wisdom.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#655

Post by smackeyacky »

refurb wrote: post #603
rednerrus wrote: post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've had perpetual war for the last 20 years. We've had increasing inequality. The temperature is rising, wages are stagnating, riots in major urban areas are becoming more common. These are not the good times. We have plenty to eat and too much technology but these are not what make the good times.

Perpetual war in a far off land that has pretty much zero impact on people at home. Inequality sure, but the economy has been on a tear in the US since the 90’s, contrast that with the decade of the Great Depression. And the riots now are nothing compared to the 60’s riots worldwide. The last 20-30 years have definitely been easy times for the developed world. Not without challenges (2008 crash) but relatively speaki…

I am not sure that is true. As an outside observer of the US I see a lot of highly trained, potentially dangerous veterans who came home to a pile of broken promises with broken psyches and sometimes broken bodies. There are now decades worth of these guys milling around in a society awash with firearms and blitzed with misinformation. It's a powderkeg that might just go off unexpectedly. Of course there are side effects to those middle east adventures.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#656

Post by gumby »

coldtea wrote: post #277
gumby wrote: post #203

I really wonder how much of this actually is a problem, how prevalent it is, how new it is, and how much of the problem is socially induced. Just anecdotally, my sister and I have different relationships with our parents. They had different relationships with their own parents, and different from their respective siblings. My adult child is quite close with me. My ex had yet different relationships with each of her p…

> And all that leads me to wonder: how much unhappiness about the structure of a given relationship stems simply from its deviation from society's stereotypical model of what an ideal relationship should be? My opinion: less than we think. Plus, the ideal stereotype is usually there for a reason. We're social animals. A broken bond is a broken bond, whether it's with parents, community, friends, or our own family. We…

> Plus, the ideal stereotype is usually there for a reason.

Is it? Is it true for the body shape stereotypes I mentioned? Those change over time. Is it true for common racist stereotypes?

> We're social animals. A broken bond is a broken bond, whether it's with parents, community, friends, or our own family. We can pretend that we're fine, but then we don't get to be a society full of self-reported depressed people, with great levels of psychological brokeness, addiction, and so on, and have a big majority lamenting how they are "so lonely".

This is a huge leap, that also takes on only one half of the equation. Some bonds are better off broken, and that has surely been true as long as there have been humans. I don't deny there are many self-reported depressed people, but do they constitute a higher proportion today, or lower, now people have more freedom to make their own way?

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#657

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

dsugarman wrote: post #578
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The obvious fourth possibility is "you're wrong to feel shitty about this and should find a way to feel good instead". But of course, that's precisely the possibility that the framing of toxicity excludes, because both "you're wrong to feel this way" and "it's unreasonable to ask me to change" can only be expressed as "that's not toxic".

"You're wrong to feel this way" is a ridiculous notion, one I had to personally unlearn. Emotions aren't right or wrong and you can't control them. Disregarding someone's emotions as wrong has exactly one result, resentment, which leads to heightened conflict. You can acknowledge that someone's emotions are valid while disagreeing with them on the content. Here's a template: "It sounds like when I said x you felt y,…

I'm not sure I'm fully understanding what you mean by "valid" here, because there's lots of emotions that seem obviously wrong and controllable.

The most obvious example is a fear of public speaking. Everyone I know who's struggled with it (including myself) has resolved it through the perspective that it's wrong to be afraid and you've gotta figure out tricks to get over your irrational fear. It's hard to see what a more "validating" approach would look like.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#658

Post by didibus »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #467
didibus wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replace usage of "Toxic" by "makes me feel like shit" and I think you'll understand better. What would you want to debate against someone who says something makes them feel like shit? There's not a lot to say beyond: "I don't care how you feel", "That sucks you feel that way, what would make you feel better", and "It's unreasonable to ask me to change in ways that make you feel better, so suck it up". Now imagine one…

The obvious fourth possibility is "you're wrong to feel shitty about this and should find a way to feel good instead". But of course, that's precisely the possibility that the framing of toxicity excludes, because both "you're wrong to feel this way" and "it's unreasonable to ask me to change" can only be expressed as "that's not toxic".

> you're wrong to feel shitty about this

What would this even mean? I don't see the difference with "suck it up"?

The feeling is real, it's a fact, it could be problematic, feeling shitty in general is problematic, and so ya, if the sight of people laughing, of kittens, of blooming flowers, the singing of birds and all that makes you feel shitty, that really sucks for you, and you'll have to figure out a way to cope.

Depression and other issues definitely cause such feelings of shittinines for things that ideally wouldn't make you feel shitty.

But if others are not willing to help you, then it still seems like a "suck it up" response.

And as a person whose behavior is the cause of someone's feeling of shittinines, what do you mean by: "you're wrong to feel shitty about this"? Are you insinuating that the person is in full control of their feelings and can simply choose to have your behavior no longer make them feel shitty, but suddenly makes them feel good and uplifted?

If so, what's this magic, I'm sure lots of people would love to know. Also, what would they? What motivation would they have to adapt to your shittiness causing behavior?

And on this track, do you really think people are wrong to feel shitty for things like sexual pushiness, inuendo and abuse in a workplace or anywhere unexpected. For pressures to do things, work extra, work over the weekend, etc. For racist or sexist comments, comments and actions that denigrate others for how they look or talk or where they come from, what they believe in, etc.

I'm not being totally dismissive, I think you make a good point, some things are a matter of perspective, but this perspective is important and I think often missed. When someone makes a sex joke for example, they might not mean anything bad of it or try to make anyone feel bad. And arguably, sex jokes shouldn't make you feel shitty. But given a reality where for lots of people this joke is not a joke, but something they experienced for real, a past abuse, a constant stigma, etc., well the joke is a reminder of that shitty thing and causes them to feel shitty.

What is often asked is to stop those bad behavior, and if those are stopped, maybe the jokes about it can fly again, because there'd be no one for whom the joke was just salt on the wound.

In those cases, is "you should learn to have these things make you feel good" really an answer? They logically are bad things, instinctively made to make you feel shitty. So I still think the choices are only what I brought up before.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#659

Post by dfrey1 »

Waterluvian wrote: post #630
jgilias wrote: post #285

When I was around twenty my Mom used to call me every other day or so just to have a chat. One day, after she asked me how my day was, I shot back something along the lines of: "I don't have anything to tell you, really. You're calling so often that nothing new manages to happen in between the calls." So, she stopped calling. I would go home every other week as usual and everything seemed fine. It was only much later…

“Why do you take us on errands like the bank if mom was home?” “I just really enjoy your company.” For years in my teens I was convinced that they didn’t believe my time was as valuable as theirs. Making me wait in a fucking bank. I have two boys now and I take them shopping even when mom’s home. I deeply deeply understand my parents so much better now. I’m so thankful for that because I think it lets me love them on…

This made me tear up. I totally understand that sentiment on both sides.

I have a mentor who told me that he was confused when got married, that his wife didn't come with him when he went to the store, to the bank, or on whatever random errand he was going on. Why? Because his parents (both incredibly highly educated and busy doctors) did everything together. If one was going to the store, the other came along, because they just enjoyed each other's company. I thought it was a beautiful depiction of what a familial relationship could, and perhaps should be like.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#660

Post by Gibbon1 »

gls2ro wrote: post #641
jkhdigital wrote: post #559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Damaged kids become damaged adults I strongly disagree with this overbroad generalization. > you can't argue that being a parent requires lots of resources in both time and money, and if you don't have both, it's the right choice to not be a parent. I would be happy to argue this. Raising children is the most essentially human experience one can have. A society with fewer parents is a society well on its way to nih…

Damaged kids become damaged adults which will raise damaged kids. Of course we can add a word to express that this should not be applied to individual but only to a group: like "Majority of damaged kids become ..." and of course it really depends what people mean when they say "damaged". If that means trauma, then there is this concept of "Transgeneration transmission of trauma" not in terms of epigenetics (as this h…

Damaged kids grow up to be adults that are fearful of failing as parents.
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