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A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

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Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#571

Post by vkou »

LordHumungous wrote: post #465
pjc50 wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot of "Fox News robbed me of my parents" stories out there. https://www.salon.com/2014/02/27/i_lost_my_dad_to_fox_news_h... (2014, situation has generally got worse!) https://captainawkward.com/2020/12/09/1304-fox-news-stole-my...

Is it really that hard to just ignore these things when your parents say them? I have Republican parents and I just smile and nod whenever they say something crazy. It's extremely easy.

My friend's mother won't hug him, or let him into her house because she thinks he took the COVID vaccine.

How would you recommend he ignore that?

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#572

Post by jkhdigital »

goodpoint wrote: post #504
VirusNewbie wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I've never believed that adversity creates strength, at least that has not been my experience in life. Except this is true in the most literal sense.

Think Polio or PTSD.

It's called hormesis. Yes, there is a range beyond which further stress causes permanent and serious damage, but within the hormetic range "adversity" is basically the proximate cause of growth.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#573

Post by jkhdigital »

warent wrote: post #431
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Lots of people are massively fucked up and still have kids anyway, either accidentally or otherwise. And then their kids are put at a massive disadvantage in life and in human relationships." This is an interesting one, and in direct contradiction to the adage: "Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times.” My life experience agrees, tough…

I've been estranged from my family since my teens due to an unpleasant childhood and young adulthood. Eventually, the flames of the furnace of life reaches all of us; some younger than others; some more acutely than others. In skillful hands, it can temper us to become purer, higher quality versions of ourselves. In unskilled hands, it can damage us. All of us acquire wounds, it is a part of being human, being unskil…

Thank you for this thoughtful comment swimming in a sea of cynicism

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#574

Post by xwolfi »

LordHumungous wrote: post #342
jgilias wrote: post #285

When I was around twenty my Mom used to call me every other day or so just to have a chat. One day, after she asked me how my day was, I shot back something along the lines of: "I don't have anything to tell you, really. You're calling so often that nothing new manages to happen in between the calls." So, she stopped calling. I would go home every other week as usual and everything seemed fine. It was only much later…

Yeah it does seem like many of the "no contact" people are themselves childless. I doubt this is a coincidence.

I disagree a bit. I trained my parents early to expect a cut, and at 19 I moved with a girlfriend and never looked back.

We have a good relationship and they re good parents but I cut all attempts at having them take more space in my life than the minimum. It's so common in France we call that killing your dad (I googled and it seems to be a Freudian expression we started using to say growing up) and is part of growing up.

I have a kid now, and I want her to get the fuck out at 19, and start a life of her own with as little need for my involvment.

The funny thing is I moved to Hong Kong eventually and couldnt convince my french gf of 7 years to follow me because she couldnt tolerate being so far from her parents. I then met my current chinese wife, born here, who is in a very fusional relationship with her mom, who talks to her for hours everyday, so much she needs to kill her phone at night to stop it. And they live an hour apart...

It s clear to me there's something in Asia that's different because they all seem just as fusional (I find it unhealthy), but it may be also a girl thing more generally ? I have a sample of 2 so it's hard to know.

In any case, my daughter will be encouraged to "kill her dad" and be on her own. Even if her mom might disagree :D

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#575

Post by jkhdigital »

shadowoflight wrote: post #229
samatman wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but for many of us in the West, without the tradition common to East and South Asians of reciprocal obligation. This used to be nigh unto a human universal: your parents raise you up from a helpless infant to adulthood, and this obliges you to love and care for them for the rest of their lives. I'm as deracinated Westerner as it comes, and yet I'm fairly traditional in this regard. I can think of three acceptabl…

> This used to be nigh unto a human universal: your parents raise you up from a helpless infant to adulthood, and this obliges you to love and care for them for the rest of their lives. Alternate take on that human universal: your parents had unprotected sex and fulfilled their obligation to raise the offspring produced to adulthood, this obliges you to nothing. I'm not saying this means everyone should estrange thei…

> the idea that a child has any obligation to their parents for raising them seems misguided at best and damaging at worst, imo

Let me guess: you are not a parent

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#576

Post by SamReidHughes »

slater wrote: post #549
LAC-Tech wrote: post #546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

nvm

Can you name some of the left-of-center conspiracy theories? Genuinely interested.

Russiagate. Calling 1/6 an "insurrection." White supremacists.

Edit: Oh, and how could I forget? Systemic racism.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#577

Post by arbirk »

My father was never there, and when he was I has to manage all the horrible feelings of dread and downfall for him, me and my siblings because he was always on the brink of living on the street. As I grew up I saw him deteriorate. He is stubborn. I asked him once if me and my brothers could help clean his home so my kids could visit safely, but he started yelling about how I always complain to him.

I have no need for him in my life.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#578

Post by dsugarman »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #467
didibus wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replace usage of "Toxic" by "makes me feel like shit" and I think you'll understand better. What would you want to debate against someone who says something makes them feel like shit? There's not a lot to say beyond: "I don't care how you feel", "That sucks you feel that way, what would make you feel better", and "It's unreasonable to ask me to change in ways that make you feel better, so suck it up". Now imagine one…

The obvious fourth possibility is "you're wrong to feel shitty about this and should find a way to feel good instead". But of course, that's precisely the possibility that the framing of toxicity excludes, because both "you're wrong to feel this way" and "it's unreasonable to ask me to change" can only be expressed as "that's not toxic".

"You're wrong to feel this way" is a ridiculous notion, one I had to personally unlearn. Emotions aren't right or wrong and you can't control them. Disregarding someone's emotions as wrong has exactly one result, resentment, which leads to heightened conflict.

You can acknowledge that someone's emotions are valid while disagreeing with them on the content. Here's a template: "It sounds like when I said x you felt y, that wasn't my intention, my intention was z."

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#579

Post by [deleted] »

jkhdigital wrote: post #575
shadowoflight wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This used to be nigh unto a human universal: your parents raise you up from a helpless infant to adulthood, and this obliges you to love and care for them for the rest of their lives. Alternate take on that human universal: your parents had unprotected sex and fulfilled their obligation to raise the offspring produced to adulthood, this obliges you to nothing. I'm not saying this means everyone should estrange thei…

> the idea that a child has any obligation to their parents for raising them seems misguided at best and damaging at worst, imo Let me guess: you are not a parent

[deleted]

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#580

Post by xwolfi »

warmcat wrote: post #470
jgilias wrote: post #285

When I was around twenty my Mom used to call me every other day or so just to have a chat. One day, after she asked me how my day was, I shot back something along the lines of: "I don't have anything to tell you, really. You're calling so often that nothing new manages to happen in between the calls." So, she stopped calling. I would go home every other week as usual and everything seemed fine. It was only much later…

Maybe its just me...I have been staying away from my parents in a different country since the last 13 years. With a wife and a toddler, I still feel uneasy if I don't speak to my parents twice a day. Even though we don't have much to talk about every day, it's just the feeling of seeing them and hearing their voice which calms me down.

Twice a day wow, I text them twice a week and I can go a month without anything.

I ve been abroad 7 years myself and I could not survive with such a need for contact. Did you follow someone ?

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