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A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

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Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#501

Post by lisper »

scotty79 wrote: post #493
jgilias wrote: post #285

When I was around twenty my Mom used to call me every other day or so just to have a chat. One day, after she asked me how my day was, I shot back something along the lines of: "I don't have anything to tell you, really. You're calling so often that nothing new manages to happen in between the calls." So, she stopped calling. I would go home every other week as usual and everything seemed fine. It was only much later…

> So, I felt [...] grateful to my parents for being there in the first place I'm going to say something controversial. Not everyone is grateful for their life. I've talked to multiple people who preferred to never be born. And event the best parents I know couldn't offer much more honest reason for having children than "we wanted to" which is basically ultimate selfishness. > [...] and being decent at being parents a…

> ultimate selfishness

You can't really blame them. It's a consequence of evolution. Genes that make brains that want to have children tend to reproduce better than genes that make brains that don't.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#502

Post by goodpoint »

taddevries wrote: post #332
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Lots of people are massively fucked up and still have kids anyway, either accidentally or otherwise. And then their kids are put at a massive disadvantage in life and in human relationships." This is an interesting one, and in direct contradiction to the adage: "Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times.” My life experience agrees, tough…

Maybe this is more accurate. "Hard times create weak men, weak men create hard times" I've never believed that adversity creates strength, at least that has not been my experience in life.

Generally speaking you are right but please don't talk about "strong" and "weak". Humans are way more complex than that.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#503

Post by lisper »

munk-a wrote: post #500
scotty79 wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So, I felt [...] grateful to my parents for being there in the first place I'm going to say something controversial. Not everyone is grateful for their life. I've talked to multiple people who preferred to never be born. And event the best parents I know couldn't offer much more honest reason for having children than "we wanted to" which is basically ultimate selfishness. > [...] and being decent at being parents a…

> I know couldn't offer much more honest reason for having children than "we wanted to" which is basically ultimate selfishness. I really don't think that's at all objectionable or selfish to be honest. Couples that don't have children exist and bless them for deciding to go with their gut and not feel compelled by society into having a child. A child being born has absolutely no say in the matter - it's solely a dec…

I've lived about as good a life as it is possible to live, and I still totally understand someone who prefers the void. Sometimes I prefer the void, especially when I contemplate what is likely to transpire in the next few decades given current trends, particularly with respect to climate change.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#504

Post by goodpoint »

VirusNewbie wrote: post #356
taddevries wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe this is more accurate. "Hard times create weak men, weak men create hard times" I've never believed that adversity creates strength, at least that has not been my experience in life.

>I've never believed that adversity creates strength, at least that has not been my experience in life. Except this is true in the most literal sense.

Think Polio or PTSD.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#505

Post by pjc50 »

civilian wrote: post #490
pjc50 wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot of "Fox News robbed me of my parents" stories out there. https://www.salon.com/2014/02/27/i_lost_my_dad_to_fox_news_h... (2014, situation has generally got worse!) https://captainawkward.com/2020/12/09/1304-fox-news-stole-my...

MSNBC robbed me of an uncle :(

Explain?

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#506

Post by munk-a »

avidiax wrote: post #374
LordHumungous wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah it does seem like many of the "no contact" people are themselves childless. I doubt this is a coincidence.

It's definitely not a coincidence, but it is certainly complicated. Damaged kids become damaged adults, and if they realize it, they may decide that they wouldn't be good parents and rightly opt-out of it. Children that didn't have the right opportunities, whether that's their parent's fault or not may not have enough achievement as an adult to take on the burden of being a parent. One can argue whether it is harder…

I would avoid going straight to damage as a source. I personally am very uncomfortable with some kinds of emotional expression and as a result it's difficult for me to reach out to make small talk. I wouldn't say my upbringing was in any way abusive either - I've lived a quite privileged life. Neurodiversity is I think also a thing you need to take into consideration on this topic.

(this isn't meant to attack you for misclassification - but rather widen the pool of people who fall into this complicated class)

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#507

Post by jlos »

scotty79 wrote: post #493
jgilias wrote: post #285

When I was around twenty my Mom used to call me every other day or so just to have a chat. One day, after she asked me how my day was, I shot back something along the lines of: "I don't have anything to tell you, really. You're calling so often that nothing new manages to happen in between the calls." So, she stopped calling. I would go home every other week as usual and everything seemed fine. It was only much later…

> So, I felt [...] grateful to my parents for being there in the first place I'm going to say something controversial. Not everyone is grateful for their life. I've talked to multiple people who preferred to never be born. And event the best parents I know couldn't offer much more honest reason for having children than "we wanted to" which is basically ultimate selfishness. > [...] and being decent at being parents a…

Our culture offers very little in the way of making life meaningful, especially for those who suffer. I don't diminish the suffering of the people who's life no longer feels worth it. In fact, many people's lives are truly unhappy. But an unhappy life can still be a meaningful one.

Further I would argue the antihuman sentiment offer by your argument that giving life is selfish only further contributes to the problem.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#508

Post by kbenson »

frankish wrote: post #449
kbenson wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an important topic that I think it unfortunately too taboo to discuss in most places and instances. On the one hand, the blanket belief that reproductive rights are core and cannot be curtailed is so ingrained in some subcultures that even broaching it immediately makes people think of human rights, and on the other, overcrowding is a thing and planning for the future is important. For example, I can't imagin…

First and foremost, I strongly believe in educating or encouraging, but am strongly against forcing/coercing. A big part is likely just normalizing that it is okay not to have kids: in particular, there is so much social pressure to have them. There is also significant government incentive for a population to grow both for the economy and for retirement programs like Social Security. I do think the best thing we can…

> A big part is likely just normalizing that it is okay not to have kids

Maybe, but I'm hesitant to say that's a solution, because it implies that we can or should offset the problem (as much as we can assume there is one) by asking some people to have no kids while others continue to have many. It's not a bad thing to do, but it's not really a solution.

> There is also significant government incentive for a population to grow both for the economy and for retirement programs like Social Security.

To some degree, this is a chicken and egg and/or catch-22 problem. Our economy is based on growth, because growth was seen as inevitable, and since our economy is based on growth, we incentivize growth. That works until growth becomes constrained, and then it doesn't. Whether from outside or inside forces, understanding and possible moving towards an economy that is less coupled to growth is an important thing for us to study for the future (even if it only helps us understand our current economy better in the end).

> I do think the best thing we can do is live by example. We can choose not to have kids.

That's not the correct example. If everyone followed the example, the human race would cease to exist. Leading by example should be leading by what we expect people to do. That means leading by some people not having kids, and some people having a sustainable amount. That's not exactly different than it looks like right now if you consider some people to be leading by example, and it doesn't seem to actually do much (but population growth greatly falls off with industrialization and coming out of poverty, so maybe it does?)

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#509

Post by munk-a »

lisper wrote: post #503
munk-a wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I know couldn't offer much more honest reason for having children than "we wanted to" which is basically ultimate selfishness. I really don't think that's at all objectionable or selfish to be honest. Couples that don't have children exist and bless them for deciding to go with their gut and not feel compelled by society into having a child. A child being born has absolutely no say in the matter - it's solely a dec…

I've lived about as good a life as it is possible to live, and I still totally understand someone who prefers the void. Sometimes I prefer the void, especially when I contemplate what is likely to transpire in the next few decades given current trends, particularly with respect to climate change.

But the void isn't peace or existence - it's just nothingness. You are able to, at least, helplessly curse the world you see in front of you - without life there is absolutely nothing, there is no you to contemplate the changes or appreciate the peace of not living through them.

You simply are not.

(and sorry if this is a bit deep or morose)

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#510

Post by robbyking »

im_down_w_otp wrote: post #424

24/7 bombardment with conspiracy theories and partisan political nonsense through television and the internet has turned the relationships and bonds in my extended family into weird factions of outrage addicts that are basically impossible to interact with for any extended amount of time unless you similarly develop a fondness for their flavor of outrage or for their passive aggression for when you don't. It's exhaus…

> I intentionally decide the kinds of BS that I'm willing to subject myself to

This was my experience, too. My father used to playfully needle me about our political differences, but after 2016 it was difficult to discuss anything without it becoming a rant. Finally he yelled at me because I said I agreed with mask mandates, and I decided I had had enough.

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