Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan • Hacker News Board

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#201

Post by staticman2 » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 10:36 PM UTC

NoImmatureAdHom wrote: post #192

staticman2 wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given this logic if America had a policy of throwing everyone with blond hair in jail for "hair crimes" you would conclude it is a fairer system than Japan's if Japanese-Americans had a lower incarceration rate than Japanese people in Japan. That's some heroic effort in defense of America's high incarceration rate.

...I didn't make any claims at all about fairness. What?

Further up on this thread someone wrote "If you ever thought the American justice system is bad...".

Someone else wrote wrote " Not trying to handwave away issues with the Japanese system, but scale seems relevant here. Japan: 40 incarcerated per 100k population [1] USA: 655 incarcerated per 100k population [2]"

So I read your post in that context. The conversation seemed to me to be about whether the American or Japanese justice system is "bad". Fairness would seem to be an aspect of "good" or "bad"... if you weren't trying to argue the American justice system was "good" I've lost the context of what you were trying to say.

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#202

Post by killingtime74 » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 10:39 PM UTC

sunstone wrote: post #144

laurieg wrote: post #49

The most curious thing: Why were none of the Japanese executives arrested? Not even briefly for questioning? Ghosn was held for hundreds of days, Kelly is currently undergoing trial. It seems to me that this was a corporate coup with assistance from the prosecutors office. The plan was Ghosn would be arrested, admit guilt straightaway, possibly under some questionable interrogation[1] and then get a fine/suspended se…

The thing I can't believe is that Japan's trading partners like USA, Canada, UK, Europe etc. haven't said boo about this outrageous miscarriage of justice in which the Japanese government has been complicit. As for as I know not one government has spoken out publicly.

Carlos Ghosn is a small potato. His only connection to those countries you listed is France. Does he have connections with French politicians? Probably not.

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#203

Post by touristtam » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 11:01 PM UTC

sorry but is the BBC late to the party? I have seen articles about this as early as dec 2019.

French article: https://www.lesechos.fr/amp/1159576

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#204

Post by rramadass » Thu, Jul 15, 2021, 12:05 AM UTC

Delk wrote: post #188

rramadass wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is a short interview with a Japanese lawyer on how the law screws over foreigners: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1ZLGqL1FMo After watching this, i could understand why Carlos Ghosn did what he did; it is an abhorrent "Hostage Justice" system.

That's an interesting interview. Too bad the editing of the video leaves a bit to be desired: it seems to cut out parts and skip in such a way that it's hard to tell what exactly the lawyer originally said, and how much the editing affects how you understand what was said. The editing is probably benign in intention, but I would much rather hear a longer and perhaps more convoluted explanation than something cut-for-…

I am not sure what you are driving at. Of course we all can do with a detailed interview with all nuances explained but obviously given the sensitive subject matter, it would be almost impossible to do/get right. Given that the interviewer is not a professional journalist/investigator (i.e. any editorial limitations, legal or otherwise, he might have been forced to work with), he has done a commendable job of highlighting a very important problem in Japan and that too from a authentic Japanese source who speaks good English. I did not find any problems in comprehending the main points.

Every tourist to Japan who might have a tendency to "let down their hair" needs to watch this video.

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#205

Post by systemvoltage » Thu, Jul 15, 2021, 12:14 AM UTC

retrac wrote: post #198

garmaine wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s the nature of extradition. Edit: Why the downvotes? “If requested by the charging state, US states and territories must extradite anyone charged with a felony, misdemeanor, or even petty offense in another US state or territory, even if the offense is not a crime in the custodial state.” As far as I’m aware this holds true of international extradition too. That’s kinda the whole point—you can’t escape justice…

I did not downvote, but I suspect they're from your attempt to compare to domestic American law. While tempting, it's a misleading comparison here. US states do that because the US constitution has the "full faith and credit" clause requiring them to acknowledge and cooperate with the legal processes of other states. There is no equivalent internationally. Dual criminality is a standard provision in most (nearly all?…

IMO it doesn't deserve a downvote, just clarification. What the post is saying is absolutely true. It's a fact.

I upvoted it.

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#206

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Jul 15, 2021, 12:23 AM UTC

garmaine wrote: post #146

Goety wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To top it off Japan extradited US citizens for doing something not considered a crime in Japan! In what world does that happen?

That’s the nature of extradition. Edit: Why the downvotes? “If requested by the charging state, US states and territories must extradite anyone charged with a felony, misdemeanor, or even petty offense in another US state or territory, even if the offense is not a crime in the custodial state.” As far as I’m aware this holds true of international extradition too. That’s kinda the whole point—you can’t escape justice…

> That's the nature of extradition

Generally, no, its not.

> As far as I’m aware this holds true of international extradition too.

It is not, it is a feature of US domestic law from the extradition clause of the US Constitution, which reflects the much closer association of US states than foreign nations.

Dual criminality is the normal standard in extradition treaties (including the US-Japan one), though nothing (except perhaps individual rights under local law) prevents a state from extraditing persons when not required by a treaty, or deporting foreigners back to their country of nationality with similar effect.

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#207

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Jul 15, 2021, 12:25 AM UTC

retrac wrote: post #198

garmaine wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s the nature of extradition. Edit: Why the downvotes? “If requested by the charging state, US states and territories must extradite anyone charged with a felony, misdemeanor, or even petty offense in another US state or territory, even if the offense is not a crime in the custodial state.” As far as I’m aware this holds true of international extradition too. That’s kinda the whole point—you can’t escape justice…

I did not downvote, but I suspect they're from your attempt to compare to domestic American law. While tempting, it's a misleading comparison here. US states do that because the US constitution has the "full faith and credit" clause requiring them to acknowledge and cooperate with the legal processes of other states. There is no equivalent internationally. Dual criminality is a standard provision in most (nearly all?…

> US states do that because the US constitution has the "full faith and credit" clause

No, they do it because of the more specific Extradition Clause, not the Full Faith and Credit clause.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition_Clause

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#208

Post by garmaine » Thu, Jul 15, 2021, 2:03 AM UTC

retrac wrote: post #198

garmaine wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s the nature of extradition. Edit: Why the downvotes? “If requested by the charging state, US states and territories must extradite anyone charged with a felony, misdemeanor, or even petty offense in another US state or territory, even if the offense is not a crime in the custodial state.” As far as I’m aware this holds true of international extradition too. That’s kinda the whole point—you can’t escape justice…

I did not downvote, but I suspect they're from your attempt to compare to domestic American law. While tempting, it's a misleading comparison here. US states do that because the US constitution has the "full faith and credit" clause requiring them to acknowledge and cooperate with the legal processes of other states. There is no equivalent internationally. Dual criminality is a standard provision in most (nearly all?…

I Google and that was the first thing that came up, probably because I’m in the US. If international extradition language was easier to pull up on mobile I would have used that.

I wasn’t purposefully making the comparison but rather attempting to demonstrate that extradition is meant to follow the laws of the place where the crime took place rather than the place where the fugitive resides.

Unlike the US domestic situation, sovereign states are necessarily allowed some leeway in choosing which requests to honor. However it was my understanding that it is generally not a requirement that the alleged crime be illegal on both jurisdictions. Thank you for providing evidence to the contrary.

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#209

Post by NoImmatureAdHom » Thu, Jul 15, 2021, 2:13 AM UTC

staticman2 wrote: post #201

NoImmatureAdHom wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...I didn't make any claims at all about fairness. What?

Further up on this thread someone wrote "If you ever thought the American justice system is bad...". Someone else wrote wrote " Not trying to handwave away issues with the Japanese system, but scale seems relevant here. Japan: 40 incarcerated per 100k population [1] USA: 655 incarcerated per 100k population [2]" So I read your post in that context. The conversation seemed to me to be about whether the American or Jap…

I appreciate the explanation! I could've been clearer.

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#210

Post by NoImmatureAdHom » Thu, Jul 15, 2021, 2:17 AM UTC

user-the-name wrote: post #200

NoImmatureAdHom wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is empirically true. It is, of course, possible for things to be both true and racist, for some definition of racist.

The fact that you just stop the train of thought there is the racist part.

What would be the non-racist thing to do?