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Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#41

Post by tmh88j »

causality0 wrote: post #30
lkramer wrote: post #13

The whole story is a bit hard to untangle, but I wouldn't be surprised if both that he literally saved Nissan and funneled money off to personal projects is true. He strikes me as the type of executive who believe he can do what he wants as long as he shows result. It was rumoured that the house he lives in in Beirut actually belongs to Nissan and they've been trying to get him kicked out, but with little success.

Nissan may have been saved, but it came at the cost of their reputation. According to my auto mechanic friends Nissan once ranked up there with Toyota and Honda for reliability, but their quality plummeted after the Renault deal.

> According to my auto mechanic friends Nissan once ranked up there with Toyota and Honda for reliability, but their quality plummeted after the Renault deal.

Nissan went to crap when they took a controlling stake in JATCO and started using those god awful CVT's in everything, and then stopped putting any effort into their sports cars to keep them competitive enough to lure enthusiasts to their brand. I owned a GT-R for several years and it was a great car, but it's going on 13 years of the same generation and the 370z is hardly any different from the 350z that first came out in 2002. I could rant for hours, I used to love Nissan. I'm hoping the 400z will turn things around for them in the eyes of enthusiasts if it's priced reasonably.

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#42

Post by thaumasiotes »

ohhelloxoxo wrote: post #32
namelessoracle wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you ever thought the American justice system is bad, look into the Japanese one. The whole system is designed to make you confess and apologize. They will literally lie to you and tell you it will all go away if you sign the confession paperwork. You dont get a lawyer while they do this, and they get to keep you for quite a bit of time before you get a lawyer. They also dont do trial by jury, but inquisitorial jud…

Not trying to handwave away issues with the Japanese system, but scale seems relevant here. Japan: 40 incarcerated per 100k population [1] USA: 655 incarcerated per 100k population [2] [1] https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/japan [2] https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/united-states-america

How many Japanese Americans are incarcerated per capita in the US?

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#43

Post by new299 »

Simulacra wrote: post #17

The more I learned about the Japanese judicial system, the more I found myself cheering for this guy. The system seemed like it was designed as a can't-lose process for the prosecutors, and if arrested, you're guilty until proven innocent. I'm more sad that the guys who helped him are in hot water.

I’d be interested in sources on this…

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#44

Post by thaumasiotes »

crooked-v wrote: post #37
y-c-o-m-b wrote: post #34

> in a country which has a 99.4% conviction rate. Brutal. Either they're really good at building the necessary evidence or they're just ruthless when it comes to criminal justice. Based on the other comments in this thread, it seems the latter. It's interesting to me how a society that prides itself on honor can act so dishonorably when it comes to human rights. This applies to their work ethics as well. They have th…

On this note, the Ace Attorney series is one long parody of the Japanese criminal law system, which is why it's such a running theme that every defendant is automatically guilty until you incontrovertibly prove them otherwise and why the defense attorneys get treated like dirt throughout.

The series may have taken things a little far: https://www.awkwardzombie.com/comic/guilty-until-proven-guil...

> This is a comic that Norrin wrote. It is about the Ace Attorney system of law, in which your client is not only guilty until proven innocent, but also guilty until someone else is proven guilty. If you want to get away with murder in this universe, all you need to do is not wander into the courtroom after the system has inevitably arrested the wrong person.

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#45

Post by laurieg »

bogomipz wrote: post #35
jumelles wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan's conviction rate is above 99%. If you're arrested you can be held for up to 23 days without access to a lawyer. Japan's justice system is far from perfect.

>"Japan's conviction rate is above 99%." Although this figure is is regularly sited in the context of Ghosn's decision to flee the country this statistic is misleading since in Japan this figure counts cases where the defendant pleads guilty. So this 99% figure applies to all prosecuted cases not just contested cases. If the US were to use the same calculation the conviction rate would be about the same. I believe it…

The 99% conviction rate number that is mentioned can be misleading. This article[1] details how prosecutors drop cases and only bring 'airtight' cases before a judge.

However, Carlos Ghosn's case was not simple some street crime uncovered by local cops, it was investigated by the special investigation section of the Tokyo prosecutors office. Cases brought by them are far less likely to be dropped. The defendant more or less has to prove their innocence.

The power of prosecutors in the current system is clearly out of balance, but it doesn't seem to show signs of correcting anytime soon.

[1]https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-topics/c05401/order-in-the-c...

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#46

Post by MegaButts »

bogomipz wrote: post #35
jumelles wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan's conviction rate is above 99%. If you're arrested you can be held for up to 23 days without access to a lawyer. Japan's justice system is far from perfect.

>"Japan's conviction rate is above 99%." Although this figure is is regularly sited in the context of Ghosn's decision to flee the country this statistic is misleading since in Japan this figure counts cases where the defendant pleads guilty. So this 99% figure applies to all prosecuted cases not just contested cases. If the US were to use the same calculation the conviction rate would be about the same. I believe it…

How do you plead guilty and not get convicted? I'm not arguing - I genuinely don't understand.

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#47

Post by fomine3 »

y-c-o-m-b wrote: post #34

> in a country which has a 99.4% conviction rate. Brutal. Either they're really good at building the necessary evidence or they're just ruthless when it comes to criminal justice. Based on the other comments in this thread, it seems the latter. It's interesting to me how a society that prides itself on honor can act so dishonorably when it comes to human rights. This applies to their work ethics as well. They have th…

Muraki's case is most notorious one.

https://www.nippon.com/en/people/e00156/railroaded-one-woman...

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#49

Post by laurieg »

The most curious thing: Why were none of the Japanese executives arrested? Not even briefly for questioning? Ghosn was held for hundreds of days, Kelly is currently undergoing trial.

It seems to me that this was a corporate coup with assistance from the prosecutors office. The plan was Ghosn would be arrested, admit guilt straightaway, possibly under some questionable interrogation[1] and then get a fine/suspended sentence. Nissan could be free from Ghosn with a minimum of fuss.

Of course, it didn't go down that way, but Ghosn fleeing the country was probably the next best thing. Public opinion in Japan generally seems to be "Why would you run if you are innocent?" and the case is forgotten.

It will be interesting to see if any revelations come out in Kelly's trial (currently underway).

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/11/world/asia/11japan.html

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#50

Post by Phrodo_00 »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #42
ohhelloxoxo wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not trying to handwave away issues with the Japanese system, but scale seems relevant here. Japan: 40 incarcerated per 100k population [1] USA: 655 incarcerated per 100k population [2] [1] https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/japan [2] https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/united-states-america

How many Japanese Americans are incarcerated per capita in the US?

How is this relevant to anything
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