A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement • Hacker News Board

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#381

Post by msbarnett » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 9:34 PM UTC

ceilingcorner wrote: post #367

michaelmrose wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We might live but we wouldn't live well and our long term prospects would be dim.

The claim was “extinction event.”

The phrase I used was actually “extinction scenario” rather than a singular event, and “most people die immediately, an unlucky few eke out lives of unspeakable horror and pestilence for a handful of generations before the species collapses entirely” was basically what I had in mind.

Really though I can’t imagine what you think this pedantic obsession with whether or not everyone gets blown up immediately is adding to the conversation.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#382

Post by pkghost » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 9:35 PM UTC

bseidensticker wrote: post #357

teddyh wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Toxic" is just a catchier-sounding synonym for "harmful." It’s more subtle than that. “Toxic” is used as a synonym for “ irredeemably harmful”, and that very distinction makes all the difference. If a person is labeled a “jerk”, they are potentially redeemable and able to be reformed, but if someone is labeled as “toxic”, the label itself declares that there is no helping them. The label itself prescribes ostracis…

I don't think "toxic" means "irredeemably harmful". It just means harmful and makes no judgement on intent.

It's more than harmful—prior to the latest common usage, toxic usually meant potentially lethal for sufficient dosage.

So, while it is indeed free of connotations of intent, it evokes disgust and, in fact, invites ostracism. If something is so dangerous that it can kill you, there's rarely much wisdom in attempting to talk it out of being lethal. Better to just remove it from your environment.

In any case, I agree that the word is tragically overworked. And don't we all know that overwork can be toxic.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#383

Post by didibus » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 9:36 PM UTC

shagie wrote: post #143

wonderwonder wrote: post #36

Wonder how much of this is driven by social media and the internet today. The word 'Toxic' is just thrown around now and everything is 'Toxic'. Its a word that has ceased to have any real meaning but virtually every behavior that used to just be normal every day activity is Toxic. Everyone has flaws and no one has all the answers. Parents are just people doing the best they can and for the most part making what they…

> The word 'Toxic' is just thrown around now and everything is 'Toxic'. Its a word that has ceased to have any real meaning but virtually every behavior that used to just be normal every day activity is Toxic. I've been tempted to write a blog post "Toxic Considered Harmful" One of the biggest problems with the toxic label is there isn't anything that can be said in response. Its an attempt to get sympathy and/or end…

Replace usage of "Toxic" by "makes me feel like shit" and I think you'll understand better.

What would you want to debate against someone who says something makes them feel like shit? There's not a lot to say beyond: "I don't care how you feel", "That sucks you feel that way, what would make you feel better", and "It's unreasonable to ask me to change in ways that make you feel better, so suck it up".

Now imagine one person telling another their behavior is toxic, which means they are telling them that they make them feel like shit. Well the response will dictate what happens to the relationship. If the response is anything but "That sucks you feel that way, what would make you feel better", well the logical move for the person feeling like shit is to find a way to never have to interact with the toxic person again or force them to change their behavior.

What else would you want to discuss?

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#384

Post by baseballdork » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 9:37 PM UTC

iammisc wrote: post #210

polka_haunts_us wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think some young people don't view family as obligatory if it negatively affects them. My sister and I would certainly classify ourselves as such. My sister rather intentionally after graduating college cut contact with my mom to a very minimal amount, and I remember vividly my mom being in tears on a frequent basis because my sister had blocked her facebook account and wasn't responding to her daily emails about r…

> In kind of a macro sense I appreciate my parents raising me, but I do not consider continued contact with them obligatory in any way, shape, or form, and certainly not at the level that my parents in particular want that relationship. This is what I can't understand. I get not wanting a relationship if your parents were abusive. But if you 'appreciate your parents raising [you]', then clearly you think your childho…

> don't you think you owe them something? Anything?

IMHO, no. You don't owe your parents anything for doing the job they signed up for. I have a great relationship with my parents and had a great upbringing. It's very difficult for me to imagine cutting off contact. However, I also don't feel like I owe them a single thing and I think they'd agree with me on that.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#385

Post by golemiprague » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 9:38 PM UTC

Might also have something todo with the age in which people bring children these days. People don't know what it is like to be a parent and got no empathy to their own parents until they actually have the same experiences.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#386

Post by fidesomnes » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 9:42 PM UTC

Reading this makes me realize a lot of you should of kicked to the curb bad family relationships a long time ago.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#387

Post by ta2157 » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 9:43 PM UTC

It's what leftists have been asking for: "disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement". Add in the snowflake generational belief that their personal feelings trump anything else, and we get to where we are.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#388

Post by hcurtiss » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 9:44 PM UTC

frankish wrote: post #373

I will try not to complain about my parents, but one of the big side-effects is that I do not want kids and have had a vasectomy to prevent that. Not the only reason, but a relevant one. I think more people should choose not to have kids and our societies/governments should stop pushing so hard to have more due to traditional values or so economies can grow. It is time for us to focus on quality and not quantity. I t…

You seem very thoughtful and set in your calculus. It's probably no help, but for what it's worth, two kids is less than replacement value. Were every couple to have only two kids, the odds are some would die and you would have a shrinking, not growing, population. Having kids, at least in my experience, is a true blessing, and something that I think will bring me great joy for many decades. To each their own, but I wouldn't worry too much about environmental impacts or global carrying capacity.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#389

Post by handrous » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 9:45 PM UTC

ponow wrote: post #365

mleonhard wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you assume that I'm not improving? I started improving after I took a free 10-day meditation course (the Goenka one), four years ago. At the course, I gained the ability to notice changes in my emotions and mental state. Suddenly, I could see when my mind switches to a judgmental attitude. I began intentionally trying to prevent the switch. I also intentionally restrain myself if I do switch into that mode. Ch…

Despite my half century and having repeatedly listened to and ruminated about "being judgemental", I can't fully fault "making judgements", for without judgement we have no comparison of worse vs better, and without that we have no basis for improvement. At issue mostly is _hasty_ judgement, uninformed, and without humility of all the potential and unknowable errors in judgement. But we definitely must judge, or stag…

Judging pointlessly is a big one, too. Especially if unhelpful levels of ill emotions are all wrapped up with judging things to be bad, which is so common I think it's fair to call that most people's default state, unless they've taken effort to change that.

Fixing those (forming judgements when they serve no purpose; feeling excessive ill emotions over judgements) is about half of the self-improvement part of stoicism, as in "think the right way, and act the right way". It's most of the "think the right way" half.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#390

Post by dogorman » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 9:46 PM UTC

weregiraffe wrote: post #183

They fuck you up, your mum and dad. They may not mean to, but they do. They fill you with the faults they had And add some extra, just for you. But they were fucked up in their turn By fools in old-style hats and coats, Who half the time were soppy-stern And half at one another’s throats. Man hands on misery to man. It deepens like a coastal shelf. Get out as early as you can, And don’t have any kids yourself.

Presumptuous poems are insufferable.