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A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

theatlantic.com

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Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#201

Post by nathanaldensr »

shagie wrote: post #143
wonderwonder wrote: post #36

Wonder how much of this is driven by social media and the internet today. The word 'Toxic' is just thrown around now and everything is 'Toxic'. Its a word that has ceased to have any real meaning but virtually every behavior that used to just be normal every day activity is Toxic. Everyone has flaws and no one has all the answers. Parents are just people doing the best they can and for the most part making what they…

> The word 'Toxic' is just thrown around now and everything is 'Toxic'. Its a word that has ceased to have any real meaning but virtually every behavior that used to just be normal every day activity is Toxic. I've been tempted to write a blog post "Toxic Considered Harmful" One of the biggest problems with the toxic label is there isn't anything that can be said in response. Its an attempt to get sympathy and/or end…

Imagine if HN supported downvote reasons and "toxic comment" was one of them. Would I even be able to see your downvoted comment? I have "show dead" turned on in my settings, FWIW.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#202

Post by pjc50 »

nsxwolf wrote: post #62
wonderwonder wrote: post #36

Wonder how much of this is driven by social media and the internet today. The word 'Toxic' is just thrown around now and everything is 'Toxic'. Its a word that has ceased to have any real meaning but virtually every behavior that used to just be normal every day activity is Toxic. Everyone has flaws and no one has all the answers. Parents are just people doing the best they can and for the most part making what they…

A few years back there was a movement on Facebook with groups called "Survivors of Narcissistic Parents" and similar that encouraged people to cut off their parents. It seemed wildly popular and had tons of engagement. People would diagnose their parents with Narcissistic Personality Disorder, discuss how every problem in their lives could be traced to their parents, and that was that. I've also saw more than one per…

> anticircumcision movement

This is one of those things that is specific to the Jewish religion, in which it serves as an irreversible symbol of membership and has done for about three thousand years ... and also a subset of Americans, who do it for reasons which they suddenly find difficult to explain to their adult children.

If it's important for adult life, but not actually urgent, leave it until the child is old enough to be asked for their meaningful consent.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#203

Post by gumby »

I really wonder how much of this actually is a problem, how prevalent it is, how new it is, and how much of the problem is socially induced.

Just anecdotally, my sister and I have different relationships with our parents. They had different relationships with their own parents, and different from their respective siblings. My adult child is quite close with me. My ex had yet different relationships with each of her parents, which was different from her own siblings. And that's just a small selection. Some of these relationships would be considered strained, some very close, and all sorts of points in-between.

Historically cities were full of people who wanted to get away from where they were before, some for adventure, sure, but also many to get away from family and social relationships.

I don't doubt that there are adults (especially older parents) heartbroken about estrangement from other family members. So for those people sure, it's a problem. But it's quite possible the counterpart in the (non-) relationship is quite satisfied by where things stand. And given that a kid grew up with a parent: how many less tight relationships are satisfactory to all concerned?

And all that leads me to wonder: how much unhappiness about the structure of a given relationship stems simply from its deviation from society's stereotypical model of what an ideal relationship should be? This definitely differs from society to society; the south asian side of my family is full of very close relationships (to say the least) but is also very stifling and unhappy for some members. Certainly people feel heartbreak, and some suffer serious psychological disorders, due to a mismatch between their body and the (then) social ideal. We recognize that as an unfair pathology; why not the same for human relationships which are exponentially more varied than body shapes.

This all reminds me of common surveys of religious prevalence: most of them assume that it's the default state, and often don't even have a way to measure "don't care".

You can see this kind of assumption in the article itself, where the author quotes an academic: "but the idea that a relative could be faulted for failing to honor/acknowledge one’s ‘identity’ would have been incomprehensible." -- Just tell that to, for example, the gay folks, or folks who adopted a different religion, who left their families of wider communities because they needed to be recognized for who they are. The incomprehension by these commentators that these are indeed longstanding factors demonstrates their own biases.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#204

Post by throwaway0a5e »

antattack wrote: post #190
nsxwolf wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few years back there was a movement on Facebook with groups called "Survivors of Narcissistic Parents" and similar that encouraged people to cut off their parents. It seemed wildly popular and had tons of engagement. People would diagnose their parents with Narcissistic Personality Disorder, discuss how every problem in their lives could be traced to their parents, and that was that. I've also saw more than one per…

As the saying goes: The apple never falls far from the tree.

The statistical apple can only fall so far from the statistical tree. Some apples may roll down hillsides or into rivers but it's unwise to bet on any one apple doing so.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#205

Post by burgessaccount »

wonderwonder wrote: post #36

Wonder how much of this is driven by social media and the internet today. The word 'Toxic' is just thrown around now and everything is 'Toxic'. Its a word that has ceased to have any real meaning but virtually every behavior that used to just be normal every day activity is Toxic. Everyone has flaws and no one has all the answers. Parents are just people doing the best they can and for the most part making what they…

I’m not so sure about blaming social media. I really wish the article had included any sort of concrete data on whether estrangement has actually become more common over time. In my family, my grandfather didn’t talk to his parents because they were alcoholic money-grubbers. My grandma didn’t talk to her dad because he’d left their family to start another family. My aunt didn’t talk to my grandma because my grandma discouraged her from having a career. Reading biographies and history books, it seems like there have always been shitty, “toxic,” or difficult parents, and there have always been disowning, abandonments, and silent treatments. Add to that the fact that our social support structures (babysitting help, end-of-life care) can be paid for in cash, rather than social favors, and you have some pretty normal and understandable dynamics. People barely have time for friends these days. What are the odds that both parents are fun, awesome people you really want to hang out with and spend extra time with? FWIW, I get along great with my parents. But I also recognize that they were better, healthier, more supportive, more present parents than what most of my friends had growing up.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#206

Post by Apocryphon »

nathanaldensr wrote: post #194
rayiner wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Resentment arises from a gap between expectations and reality. Maybe the problem is the idealized expectations. And talking about things doesn’t help that. Kids need to learn that life sucks and then you die and really internalize that in order to bring expectations in line with reality.

Agreed. Except now, idealization doesn't only apply to "white picket fence" experiences or "going to college." Now it applies to inner identity , and sometimes aggressive or even militant external identities . It's an impossible situation for a parent. Sometimes, the only way for the parent to survive emotionally is to allow the child to fail and hopefully learn from the failure.

Have to wonder if that identity is the final refuge of generations that feel helpless and worse-off than prior ones.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#207

Post by iammisc »

nate_meurer wrote: post #176
iammisc wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not to be too dramatic, I believe abusive parents will metaphorically poison their families well beyond their own lives. Cutting that rot out of the tree is sometimes a way to save the healthier branches. Thanks for the reply. You are labeling any kind of deference towards your parents as abuse. Do you not see the absolutism and extremism in your statement? Nowhere did I say children should tolerate abuse. I just s…

> Do you not see the absolutism and extremism in your statement? You mean, like this statement: > Your parents will never be your equals. Sounds pretty extreme and absolutist to me. Are you saying that the mere act of procreation entitles a person to eternal deference from their children regardless of the nature of their relationship to those children? > Parents have looked after you since you were a baby, they're al…

> Sounds pretty extreme and absolutist to me.

I am giving a social absolute. Your absolute regarded abuse, a crime, and a serious one at that. A statement being absolute is only concerning if it's also extreme. Labeling deference to parents as abusive is extreme.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#208

Post by iammisc »

nate_meurer wrote: post #186
iammisc wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think I understand that either. My view of family is definitely one of obligation not understanding.

It sounds like you had a decent family, but are you able to see that your experience isn't universal? Can you imagine that many other people have vastly worse families, with a wide range of abusive and predatory behaviors?

Yes, I have considered that. I know many people who rightly rejected their own family. It is sad and very tragic and scary.

However, I also know a lot of people raised like I was who have left as well, and see no problem with it. They had perfectly fine childhoods, but treat their parents like trash.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#209

Post by peteretep »

queuebert wrote: post #56

In my particular case, the rift is due to Rupert Murdoch's media outlets destroying my parents' logical reasoning ability coupled with a particular kind of boomer narcissism. For example, when I was young, my mom stayed home and raised me, fed me health foods, and gave me a head start on education. She was very loving and did a great job, really. These days, she screams at me and says she hopes Trump cancels my resea…

I’m sorry for you dude, that sucks

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#210

Post by iammisc »

polka_haunts_us wrote: post #140
iammisc wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think I understand that either. My view of family is definitely one of obligation not understanding.

I think some young people don't view family as obligatory if it negatively affects them. My sister and I would certainly classify ourselves as such. My sister rather intentionally after graduating college cut contact with my mom to a very minimal amount, and I remember vividly my mom being in tears on a frequent basis because my sister had blocked her facebook account and wasn't responding to her daily emails about r…

> In kind of a macro sense I appreciate my parents raising me, but I do not consider continued contact with them obligatory in any way, shape, or form, and certainly not at the level that my parents in particular want that relationship.

This is what I can't understand. I get not wanting a relationship if your parents were abusive. But if you 'appreciate your parents raising [you]', then clearly you think your childhood was 'good enough', so don't you think you owe them something? Anything? MY childhood was hardly perfect. My mother and father are both incredibly flawed individuals who still get on my nerves, to the point of tears many times. But... they're my parents. I mean, I've made them cry before, and I know I have all kinds of negative personality traits. I can't imagine them just leaving me like that. Sounds terrible

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