A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement • Hacker News Board

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#291

Post by glenda » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 8:26 PM UTC

chmod775 wrote: post #151

nsxwolf wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few years back there was a movement on Facebook with groups called "Survivors of Narcissistic Parents" and similar that encouraged people to cut off their parents. It seemed wildly popular and had tons of engagement. People would diagnose their parents with Narcissistic Personality Disorder, discuss how every problem in their lives could be traced to their parents, and that was that. I've also saw more than one per…

That sounds terrible. It's fine to disagree with decisions someone (shouldn't have) made on your behalf, but learning to judge people by intent, not result, is part of adulthood. Punishing someone who loves you for doing the best they knew to do is one of the most cruel things I can imagine. In other words, disliking someone for something they did to you does not automatically mean they deserve punishment and you sho…

Continuing to let someone degrade you because “they’re doing the best they can do” is equally cruel. All relationships take work, if one party isn’t willing to work on it then thats not a relationship worth putting energy into.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#292

Post by Hobli » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 8:26 PM UTC

wonderwonder wrote: post #36

Wonder how much of this is driven by social media and the internet today. The word 'Toxic' is just thrown around now and everything is 'Toxic'. Its a word that has ceased to have any real meaning but virtually every behavior that used to just be normal every day activity is Toxic. Everyone has flaws and no one has all the answers. Parents are just people doing the best they can and for the most part making what they…

Social media no doubt is inflicting brain damage in much the same way being surrounded by the wrong people does.

But putting that aside, when reasons have acummuluted over time for a relationships to weaken the main question is whether there are reasons to connect. And whether it gets verbalized, acknowledged and built upon.

If there are common interests, activities that generate energy on both sides (as simple as cooking a meal together, gardening together etc) then it gets easier to maintain connect cause there is something positive for the mind to focus on inspite of all the negatives. Then there is hope.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#293

Post by GavinMcG » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 8:26 PM UTC

teddyh wrote: post #265

GavinMcG wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Toxic" is just a catchier-sounding synonym for "harmful." It doesn't imply intent — in fact, that's one of its strengths, and one of the major components in the shift in the way we collectively talk about things over the past couple decades. Part of the conversation around race, for example, has been an awareness by more and more people that unintentional harms are far more prevalent than intentional ones, and in to…

> "Toxic" is just a catchier-sounding synonym for "harmful." It’s more subtle than that. “Toxic” is used as a synonym for “ irredeemably harmful”, and that very distinction makes all the difference. If a person is labeled a “jerk”, they are potentially redeemable and able to be reformed, but if someone is labeled as “toxic”, the label itself declares that there is no helping them. The label itself prescribes ostracis…

I mean, same with "harmful" right? But I've rarely heard a person described that way. Usually it's a behavior.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#294

Post by bendmorris » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 8:27 PM UTC

spookthesunset wrote: post #155

polka_haunts_us wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a politics shifted perspective of this, sometime late last year before prayer before meal, my mom was talking happily about how she hoped Jeff Bezos got the guillotine. Just before "Bless us O Lord and these thy gifts...", "Boy wouldn't it be funny if a mob necked Bezos". Her main news sources are Salon and Twitter threads of various left (Bernie or more) wing writers. I remember referencing the incident a couple…

> I swear the last 4 years drove the vast majority of everyone insane, in a very literal sense. TDS is very, very real and when paired with this whole covid thing it only got worse. Peoples deep issues with the last 4 years joined forces with media fear mongering to create a perfect storm resulting in what will be someday be looked back upon as a massive "social engineering" failure.

If you think extreme polarization and degradation of critical thinking is exclusively a problem of the other side, it probably applies to you as well.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#295

Post by gpt5 » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 8:27 PM UTC

dkarl wrote: post #134

everdrive wrote: post #26

>Estranged parents often tell me that their adult child is rewriting the history of their childhood, accusing them of things they didn’t do, and/or failing to acknowledge the ways in which the parent demonstrated their love and commitment. Adult children frequently say the parent is gaslighting them by not acknowledging the harm they caused or are still causing, failing to respect their boundaries, and/or being unwil…

I disagree. I don't like the way the power of the word has been eroded either, but gaslighting in the original sense does happen, and I think parents are frequent offenders, because they become accustomed to the power they have over their kids' perception of reality. The most extreme example I know of: a woman I know was sexually abused by a teenage neighbor when she was very young. When her parents found out, they t…

This anecdote is a good example of gaslighting because it appears that the parents are aware of the facts, but intentionally deny them, making her question reality.

The problem arises if the parent honestly believe in a different set of facts, in which case it is not intentional and hence not gaslighting.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#296

Post by teslaberry » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 8:28 PM UTC

the 'open society' model is about encouraging radical individualism by any and all means. 1) encourage consumption not production, people can consume alone, production however often requires cooperation 2) encourage immidiate pleasure, especially sexual pleasure ,over sexual gratification resulting from hard work, this means encouraging promiscuity , prositution and masterbutation over sexually satifying long term reltionships will require delayed gratification and cooperation, rather than individualism.

3) encourage the breakdown of the family by any and all means, inclusive of encoruaging institutional dependence and loyalty over dependence and loyalty to family.

4) encourage economic structuring of society which makes indiivudals more dependent on large instiotutions or to seek out self destruction, then they are to seek out help from immidiate friends and family.

5) encourage a society of specialists and respect for specialization versus generalization at every level. mandate social requirements for dependencies on specialists.

preists used to handle many family and community functions that are now handled by a myriad of specialists included mental health assesment. sometimes , the state cooperates with private institutions and sometimes it opposes them, depending on whether those institutions are cooperating to radical individualism , or doing the opposite.

6) create fake religions that sway people towards anti-community mind set. for example science is a process and methodlogy, turn it into a religion to be worshipped with a godhead of technological control and chaotic fear , so that you can attract and encourage people to distance themselves away from personal family and friends. if that doesn't work, as a last resort ask them to worship the state, or some other non-community based ethos like 'globalism',

to reform society you must separate and reconsitute individuals into their constitute atomsistic selfish selves, so they don't resist your aims, or possibly even help you achieve them.

the "open society" you cannot stop it. don't try. you are alone.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#297

Post by mensetmanusman » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 8:29 PM UTC

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #282

rogerclark wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In therapy circles and attachment theory land, this is exactly what's supposed to happen when you receive "good enough parenting". Good enough parenting means your parents actually tried and either worked through any of their issues preventing them from giving care to their children, or didn't have those issues in the first place. So the idea goes, you end up developing a relationship based on mutual respect, love, a…

> "Lots of people are massively fucked up and still have kids anyway, either accidentally or otherwise. And then their kids are put at a massive disadvantage in life and in human relationships." This is an interesting one, and in direct contradiction to the adage: "Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times.” My life experience agrees, tough…

We are still reeling from WW2 that wiped out massive numbers of (mostly) men who were then missing fathers. All the down-stream effects of that are fascinating.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#298

Post by sjg007 » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 8:30 PM UTC

dpweb wrote: post #261

hackeraccount wrote: post #139

We're all living that Asian family joke. Parents spend their whole lives waiting for their kids to thank you. Kids spend their whole lives waiting for their parent to say "I'm sorry." That said I've never felt that way about my Mom and Dad. I've faults and problems a plenty but I wouldn't ascribe any of that on them; indeed the best things about me seem to clearly come from them and the worst are just as clearly thin…

As someone who was abandoned as a child and still maintains a pretty good relationship w both parents, I'm sure they are oblivious to the effect that had on me as a child. Nor are they willing to talk about it now. They feel what's done is done and in the past, and don't want the awkwardness of that conversation. It's cool, but sometimes you wanna cry for that child. As an adult, I've heard the mistake is looking at…

You are allowed to and should grieve for that child. There's therapy based on attachment theory where you learn to how to be the parent to that (inner) child.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#299

Post by dcole2929 » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 8:30 PM UTC

wonderwonder wrote: post #262

raverbashing wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Gens Y and Z getting lower salaries, higher rents, higher costs of education, limited choices, etc" Sure, it must be the fault of social media /s Sure, not all harm is intentional, but when they get labeled as "lazy, useless, incompetent, etc" by the boomers it's hard to not blame them. I am lucky to have been relatively successful, but I see that a lot of people (a couple of years) younger than me are really strugg…

"when they get labeled as "lazy, useless, incompetent, etc" Where are they getting labeled as this on?

The news, court rooms, congress floor, board rooms, hiring committees, college admissions, and yes on social media. But let's be honest here. We have two subsequent generations whose economic outlooks have been substantially harmed by the previous generation being blamed for not being successful and it's in more or less all corners of the world that imply power.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#300

Post by mensetmanusman » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 8:31 PM UTC

michaelmrose wrote: post #259

ceilingcorner wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In reality, no one owes anyone anything. That doesn’t make it ideal or justified. Turns out that’s a bad way to structure a society and being hyper individualistic just ends up in your society collapsing.

If society collapses it will be because we ignored existential threats like climate change, nuclear war, biological warfare etc.

Change ‘will’ to ‘might’ and this statement is likely more true.