A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement • Hacker News Board

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#281

Post by mcguire » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 8:14 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #167

GavinMcG wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Toxic" is just a catchier-sounding synonym for "harmful." It doesn't imply intent — in fact, that's one of its strengths, and one of the major components in the shift in the way we collectively talk about things over the past couple decades. Part of the conversation around race, for example, has been an awareness by more and more people that unintentional harms are far more prevalent than intentional ones, and in to…

Resentment arises from a gap between expectations and reality. Maybe the problem is the idealized expectations. And talking about things doesn’t help that. Kids need to learn that life sucks and then you die and really internalize that in order to bring expectations in line with reality.

Are you sure? Because there are more lessons that I have seen people learn from their parents...

* no one cares about your opinions or ideas,

* no one has any actual affection for you; they only appear to when you have something they want,

* in a choice between your physical or mental well-being and their short-term happiness, you take a rather distant second,

* and then you die.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#282

Post by ClumsyPilot » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 8:15 PM UTC

rogerclark wrote: post #173

hackeraccount wrote: post #139

We're all living that Asian family joke. Parents spend their whole lives waiting for their kids to thank you. Kids spend their whole lives waiting for their parent to say "I'm sorry." That said I've never felt that way about my Mom and Dad. I've faults and problems a plenty but I wouldn't ascribe any of that on them; indeed the best things about me seem to clearly come from them and the worst are just as clearly thin…

In therapy circles and attachment theory land, this is exactly what's supposed to happen when you receive "good enough parenting". Good enough parenting means your parents actually tried and either worked through any of their issues preventing them from giving care to their children, or didn't have those issues in the first place. So the idea goes, you end up developing a relationship based on mutual respect, love, a…

> "Lots of people are massively fucked up and still have kids anyway, either accidentally or otherwise. And then their kids are put at a massive disadvantage in life and in human relationships."

This is an interesting one, and in direct contradiction to the adage: "Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times.”

My life experience agrees, tough times mostly produce emotionally damaged people

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#283

Post by dkarl » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 8:17 PM UTC

samatman wrote: post #181

hackeraccount wrote: post #139

We're all living that Asian family joke. Parents spend their whole lives waiting for their kids to thank you. Kids spend their whole lives waiting for their parent to say "I'm sorry." That said I've never felt that way about my Mom and Dad. I've faults and problems a plenty but I wouldn't ascribe any of that on them; indeed the best things about me seem to clearly come from them and the worst are just as clearly thin…

Yes, but for many of us in the West, without the tradition common to East and South Asians of reciprocal obligation. This used to be nigh unto a human universal: your parents raise you up from a helpless infant to adulthood, and this obliges you to love and care for them for the rest of their lives. I'm as deracinated Westerner as it comes, and yet I'm fairly traditional in this regard. I can think of three acceptabl…

Reciprocal obligation is the key. I've heard people spin it so that children owe their parents an infinite debt that justifies anything, but that is not reciprocity. Reciprocity means equivalent behavior on both sides. People get a chance as adults to discuss what happened in their households as children, and some people find out that their stories are radically outside the norm. Usually all they want is some acknowledgment from their parents that mistakes were made and it wasn't ideal. Denial and justification are the things that trigger estrangement. Or continued exploitation: people who cared for their drug-addicted or otherwise needy parents for years starting in childhood and decide that however much their parents still need them, they have to separate themselves from that pathology so they can have their own healthy life.

Not everybody wants to share details, but I've heard enough stories from friends that I'm shocked what people are willing to forgive from their parents. I shared one story in another comment -- that person has a close relationship with their parents despite it not being a very positive one. Another friend of mine, who is queer, grew up with a father who would frequently say things like all gay people should be executed, they should be locked away from decent people, doctors should have let AIDs finish the job, etc. This person did cut off contact with their parents a couple of times but eventually heard sincere apologies and regret from their father and reconciled. That was almost twenty years ago, and now they speak lovingly of their parents and are helping care for them as their health declines.

Really it comes down to two questions: forgiveness and continuing harm. In my observation, adult children are not stingy with forgiveness for their parents. Not everybody can forgive everything, and it can take a while (I wouldn't bother asking until the kids are at least 25, maybe 30) but people forgive their parents for things they would never forgive anybody else for. They also tolerate a lot of continuing harm for the sake of maintaining the relationship. They draw a sharp line when it starts to affect their own children, directly or indirectly, and I think it's good for everyone that they do so.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#284

Post by Cerium » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 8:18 PM UTC

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #282

rogerclark wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In therapy circles and attachment theory land, this is exactly what's supposed to happen when you receive "good enough parenting". Good enough parenting means your parents actually tried and either worked through any of their issues preventing them from giving care to their children, or didn't have those issues in the first place. So the idea goes, you end up developing a relationship based on mutual respect, love, a…

> "Lots of people are massively fucked up and still have kids anyway, either accidentally or otherwise. And then their kids are put at a massive disadvantage in life and in human relationships." This is an interesting one, and in direct contradiction to the adage: "Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times.” My life experience agrees, tough…

I'm not sure it is contradiction, both the strong and weak alike can be emotionally damaged. Many see dictators, or want to be dictators as strong men, yet they are often obviously damaged people.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#285

Post by jgilias » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 8:20 PM UTC

When I was around twenty my Mom used to call me every other day or so just to have a chat. One day, after she asked me how my day was, I shot back something along the lines of: "I don't have anything to tell you, really. You're calling so often that nothing new manages to happen in between the calls." So, she stopped calling. I would go home every other week as usual and everything seemed fine. It was only much later that I found out that she basically cried for three days straight after that call.

Some time later there was a period when I would contact my parents every few months or so. Not really on purpose. Simply because other things simply took more of my time and attention, and calling my parents wasn't really high on my list of priorities.

Only when my son was born I started to realize what someone goes through as an individual and as a couple once a child comes into their lives. How it changes things. That not being thrown out of the window at 2 a.m. as an infant is already a blessing. I'm sure that thought has crossed the mind of many a young parent with a screeching infant on their hands in the middle of night. So, I felt ashamed of myself, and grateful to my parents for being there in the first place, and being decent at being parents as well.

Now I've made a point to myself to call them up at least once a week. As in, I have set up a reminder for that. I now know how much they value this. But it's not only for them. I realize very well that one day I will wake up and wish to call my parents to have a chat about something. But there simply won't be anyone to call anymore.

I'm not passing any judgement at all on people who have abusive parents. I have no idea how that feels like. I'm just happy that I didn't end up accidentally getting estranged to the decent parents that I have. At some point it really was going that way.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#286

Post by kelnos » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 8:22 PM UTC

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #282

rogerclark wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In therapy circles and attachment theory land, this is exactly what's supposed to happen when you receive "good enough parenting". Good enough parenting means your parents actually tried and either worked through any of their issues preventing them from giving care to their children, or didn't have those issues in the first place. So the idea goes, you end up developing a relationship based on mutual respect, love, a…

> "Lots of people are massively fucked up and still have kids anyway, either accidentally or otherwise. And then their kids are put at a massive disadvantage in life and in human relationships." This is an interesting one, and in direct contradiction to the adage: "Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times.” My life experience agrees, tough…

This reminds me of a friend who has gone through some bad life experiences. She once told me that "everything happens for a reason" is the kind of garbage only said by people who have never had bad things happen to them.

Yes, dealing with adversity can teach us things and make us stronger. But there are limits, and adversity can also do permanent mental and emotional damage. The latter outcome is way more common than some people would like to believe.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#287

Post by mcguire » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 8:22 PM UTC

ellyagg wrote: post #184

GavinMcG wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Toxic" is just a catchier-sounding synonym for "harmful." It doesn't imply intent — in fact, that's one of its strengths, and one of the major components in the shift in the way we collectively talk about things over the past couple decades. Part of the conversation around race, for example, has been an awareness by more and more people that unintentional harms are far more prevalent than intentional ones, and in to…

It's not "just" anything and it's definitely not just catchier. Toxic is a far more forceful word that is often used to convey more force than is deserved for the situation. It steals discussion territory without justifying its claims. It's a bit like a clickbaity headline.

Have you ever had a long-term relationship with someone who would lie to your face, or lie to others about you, in order to get something they want?

There are plenty of people in the world who you would better off just staying away from.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#288

Post by mleonhard » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 8:24 PM UTC

gpt5 wrote: post #264

mleonhard wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment is a humblebrag. :( My parents modeled and explicitly taught me a judgmental mindset. It became my worst fault. Can you feel the judgement in this comment? Thanks, Dad & Mom.

The moment you stop blaming others on your faults is the moment you'll start improving.

Why do you assume that I'm not improving?

I started improving after I took a free 10-day meditation course (the Goenka one), four years ago. At the course, I gained the ability to notice changes in my emotions and mental state. Suddenly, I could see when my mind switches to a judgmental attitude. I began intentionally trying to prevent the switch. I also intentionally restrain myself if I do switch into that mode. Changing mental habits is difficult and worthwhile. I have improved a lot in this area in 4 years.

Two years ago, I realized that my parents taught me to be a judgmental jerk. Since that time, I have considerably reduced the bad mental habit. People close to me confirm this. Therefore, my experience contradicts your statement.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#289

Post by neuralRiot » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 8:24 PM UTC

michaelmrose wrote: post #259

ceilingcorner wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In reality, no one owes anyone anything. That doesn’t make it ideal or justified. Turns out that’s a bad way to structure a society and being hyper individualistic just ends up in your society collapsing.

If society collapses it will be because we ignored existential threats like climate change, nuclear war, biological warfare etc.

> If society collapses it will be because we ignored existential threats like climate change, nuclear war, biological warfare etc.

All that where created by an individualistic approach. Party now and let future generations deal with the dirt.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#290

Post by kbenson » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 8:26 PM UTC

jgilias wrote: post #285

When I was around twenty my Mom used to call me every other day or so just to have a chat. One day, after she asked me how my day was, I shot back something along the lines of: "I don't have anything to tell you, really. You're calling so often that nothing new manages to happen in between the calls." So, she stopped calling. I would go home every other week as usual and everything seemed fine. It was only much later…

Every once in a while I read something the so obviously resonates with me as how things should be with me, but not how things are, that it's depressing and humbling. That's good though, because that's how change happens. Excuse me, I need to go make some calls and set some alarms now.