Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan • Hacker News Board

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#91

Post by bogomipz » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 1:51 AM UTC

lr1970 wrote: post #81

All luggage is supposed to undergo a security check in an X-ray machine. This is true for private jets as well. I am curious how it played out in this particular case. Did it go through an X-ray machine or not? If yes, how did they mistook a human for a musical instrument?

I'm guessing this was just a calculated risk. From last year's Vanity Fair piece:

"Nothing got x-rayed, not even our backpacks”[1]

I have to believe someone involved had observed similar behavior at this location prior to this escape operation.

[1] https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/07/how-carlos-ghosn-esc...

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#92

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 1:51 AM UTC

eightails wrote: post #56

namelessoracle wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you ever thought the American justice system is bad, look into the Japanese one. The whole system is designed to make you confess and apologize. They will literally lie to you and tell you it will all go away if you sign the confession paperwork. You dont get a lawyer while they do this, and they get to keep you for quite a bit of time before you get a lawyer. They also dont do trial by jury, but inquisitorial jud…

> They also dont do trial by jury, but inquisitorial judges who you have to prove your innocence too. Inquisitorial systems are pretty common among civil law countries e.g. much of Europe, and not intrinsically better or worse than the adversarial system usually seen in common law countries -- indeed they are sometimes used by the latter for specific purposes like summary offences and coronial inquests.

[deleted]

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#93

Post by fomine3 » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 1:58 AM UTC

laurieg wrote: post #49

The most curious thing: Why were none of the Japanese executives arrested? Not even briefly for questioning? Ghosn was held for hundreds of days, Kelly is currently undergoing trial. It seems to me that this was a corporate coup with assistance from the prosecutors office. The plan was Ghosn would be arrested, admit guilt straightaway, possibly under some questionable interrogation[1] and then get a fine/suspended se…

Because only Ghosn (considered to) did embezzlement?

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#94

Post by noaccnt » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 2:08 AM UTC

Phrodo_00 wrote: post #50

thaumasiotes wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many Japanese Americans are incarcerated per capita in the US?

How is this relevant to anything

The implication of pointing out the US' high incarceration rate is that the US justice system and society are particularly malevolent.

This point was used to defend Japan's justice system as being far more benign than the US.

However, Japan's justice system may in fact be far more unforgiving that the US' if Americans are, in general, more likely to commit crime. Which is perfectly fair point to make (although inconclusive for various reasons).

If (for whatever reason) Americans are more likely to commit more crimes, they are, all else being equal, more likely to be in jail.

Of course many things can be true at the same time. Japan can have a brutal justice system and have a very docile, law abiding population. Maybe the brutality caused them to be docile. Or, America can have an abusive justice system, and a population that needs to be more incarcerated than others.

Either way, the criminality of the Japanese is a relevant factor if America's incarceration rate is made relevant

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#95

Post by 55555 » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 2:09 AM UTC

fomine3 wrote: post #93

laurieg wrote: post #49

The most curious thing: Why were none of the Japanese executives arrested? Not even briefly for questioning? Ghosn was held for hundreds of days, Kelly is currently undergoing trial. It seems to me that this was a corporate coup with assistance from the prosecutors office. The plan was Ghosn would be arrested, admit guilt straightaway, possibly under some questionable interrogation[1] and then get a fine/suspended se…

Because only Ghosn (considered to) did embezzlement?

The embezzlement charges didn't seem to make much sense when I took a look. Taken literally, sure, maybe he embezzled. But this is a guy who basically set his own salary at whatever number he wanted every year for 20 years. And apparently there was a culture at the top of the company where the executives were able to spend quite freely using company money. If you are able to simply legally pay yourself more if you want to, the only reason you wouldn't is that you are under the impression you can simply use company money for personal use anyway. What's the difference, really? It's almost just an accounting issue; clarification for investors.

I read the articles a long time ago so I may be off by a bit but I recall that when I did the math Carlos Ghosn had a personal net worth of at least ~$115 million _at the time he was accused of embezzling just a few million dollars._ It's like a millionaire stealing $20,000. Certainly possible, but more likely to be some sort of misunderstanding given the circumstances.

I don't expect this to be a popular comment. But the charges never made much sense to me. And normally in cases of corporate embezzlement there isn't such a compelling alternate narrative/conspiracy to explain what happened.

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#96

Post by noaccnt » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 2:11 AM UTC

namelessoracle wrote: post #10

sleepytimetea wrote: post #4

So, the justice system in Japan enforces additional restrictions after a person is out on bail ? He couldn't meet his wife seems like an unreasonable condition for someone out on bail. Also, is the justice system in Japan so backed up that he would have to wait years for it go to trial ?

If you ever thought the American justice system is bad, look into the Japanese one. The whole system is designed to make you confess and apologize. They will literally lie to you and tell you it will all go away if you sign the confession paperwork. You dont get a lawyer while they do this, and they get to keep you for quite a bit of time before you get a lawyer. They also dont do trial by jury, but inquisitorial jud…

":They also dont do trial by jury, but inquisitorial judges who you have to prove your innocence too. "

Didn't America set up their system after the peace treaty? They literally wrote the constitution, no?

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#97

Post by NoImmatureAdHom » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 2:13 AM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #42

ohhelloxoxo wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not trying to handwave away issues with the Japanese system, but scale seems relevant here. Japan: 40 incarcerated per 100k population [1] USA: 655 incarcerated per 100k population [2] [1] https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/japan [2] https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/united-states-america

How many Japanese Americans are incarcerated per capita in the US?

I don't know why the downvotes, this is the correct perspective. You need to take the base rate of criminality into account, and comparing Japanese in Japan to Japanese in America isn't unreasonable.

You could also look at the rate of crimes per capita in each country. For instance, murders per capita: 4.96 in the U.S. vs 0.26 in Japan [0]. If we take this to represent base-rate criminality in that population, then we have a 19:1 US:Japan murder ratio, with only a 16:1 US: Japan incarceration ratio. Japan incarcerates more per unit murder.

Of course this is a toy model, it's all a big feedback loop, etc., but I hope it serves to illustrate the point.

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention...

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#98

Post by noaccnt » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 2:15 AM UTC

google234123 wrote: post #26

Too bad for all the people that helped him escape who are being jailed now.

Why too bad? They obviously broke the law and got caught.

Imagine a pair of spetznaz break Derek Chauvin out of the US and bring him to another country. They get caught.

Too bad these foreign special forces got caught?

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#99

Post by 55555 » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 2:16 AM UTC

yborg wrote: post #15

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #11

>Until then, he remains a once-big-fish in a small pond, living in exile and under armed guard in Beirut for the foreseeable future. How secure is he in Beruit? If Japan really wanted him badly, I would guess he would be pretty easy for Israeli Mossad to pick up.

Lebanon is an economic disaster area right now, so while this won't directly affect the fabulously wealthy Ghosn, he's ironically sort of imprisoned in a failing state.

He's Lebanese. It's one of his homes.

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#100

Post by LeoPanthera » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 2:18 AM UTC

Simulacra wrote: post #18

indigodaddy wrote: post #2

“ Documentary series Storyville details his extraordinary rise and sudden fall in Carlos Ghosn: The Last Flight which will be shown on BBC 4 on Wednesday 14 July.” ^ Hoping this doc will make its way to American television.. maybe PBS/Frontline?

You can view BBC programing by setting up Tor to go through the U.K.

I had no idea this was even possible. Can you choose the physical location of your exit nodes?