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More on Vaccine Side Effects

blogs.sciencemag.org

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Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#81

Post by phtrivier »

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #33
awoimbee wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could maybe agree if the restrictions were put in the winter, but not in the summer. People have already booked their vacation, and now they need to do a PCR every 2 days to take a train, enjoy restaurants ? That's insane ! To get the "pass sanitaire" you need: first shot -> wait 3 weeks -> second shot -> wait 2 weeks. That's more than a month !

The problem is Delta seems to have much bigger R so you are basically forced to act now as each hour counts. An alternative would be restrictions for everybody - and this would be a much worse choice for a variety of reasons.

Time will tell, the goal is ostensibly to avoid a UK-style 4rth wave, trying to catch it early on this time.

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#82

Post by cmrdporcupine »

omegaworks wrote: post #78
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep it's depressing here in Ontario -- while the overall vaccination rates are pretty good (nearing 70% of total pop for first dose and 50% for fully) the vaccination rates of people aged 12-39 are pretty bad at 68% for first dose and for 12-29 only 66% and the supply of vaccines is starting to pile up. Meanwhile 95% of seniors 70+ have been first dosed (and 82% fully). Basically young people aren't getting it at the…

Does Canada offer universal sick leave? Can young people afford to miss two days of work if they have fatigue after dose 2?

Yes, after a lot of lobbying, as of Apr 29 Ontario now has 3 days paid sick leave for vaccination, vaccination related illness, and COVID itself:

https://www.ontario.ca/page/covid-19-worker-income-protectio...

That said, symptoms are milder the younger you are is what I've seen. My 13 year old and the kids of all our friends had at most a headache and mild fatigue after dose 2.

My wife and I (45/46) were knocked on our ass for two days for both our AstraZeneca (1st) and Pfizer (mixed regimen 2nd) doses.

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#83

Post by desine »

omegaworks wrote: post #76
desine wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't state that the old and infirm deserve to die. I stated that the young seem to be more prone to these side effects, and that quantifying these two against each other is problematic. Yes, clinical trials tend to be done in labs. I'm speaking colloquially here. A clinical trial of a few thousand is not nearly the same as a global push to vaccinate everyone from teenage years up.

>I didn't state that the old and infirm deserve to die. When the few-in-a-million chance of complications for the young and fit are more tragic than the 610x rate of horrible, suffocating, isolated death of the old and infirm[1], you're making space for eugenics. 1. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/investi...

>you're making space for eugenics.

With an ability to reach that long, you should be a boxer or basketball player.

Everything in this life is a compromise, a finding of balance between trade offs. I'm not about to support mandating that teenagers get a novel medical treatment. There are risks. You can cite whatever studies you want telling me it's safe, it does not matter. We are still finding new side effects of these vaccines. The trend has not plateaued, or dropped off, which implies that there may be more to be discovered in the future.

There are countless ways we can reduce the death, suffering, and pain in this world, but we must balance them against the ideals we have of personal freedom, responsibility, and trust. You would save more lives making breathalyzer lockouts mandatory in all new cars, or outlawing consumption of alcohol in restaurants and bars. You would save more lives by outlawing cigarettes nationwide. You would save more lives by outlawing backyard swimming pools. But these are not battles against your perceived political enemies on the internet, so you say nothing. You wait until some crazy anti-science (probably right-wing) nutjob posts in a covid thread that maybe we're moving a bit too fast on things, and you leap to accusations of cleaning the gene pool.

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#84

Post by AndrewBissell »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #80
AndrewBissell wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Basically young people aren't getting it at the same rate as the elderly, and not because it's not available. Wow, it's as though they have an entirely different risk calculus from the elderly.

If you're thinking about only yourself, sure.

Perhaps they're a parent concerned with staying healthy to take care of their family. More to the point, if we're acknowledging that young people's concerns about risks from the vaccine exceeding those of the virus are legitimate, but should be set aside for the sake of protecting those at greater risk, it would be the first vaccine in history people were expected to receive on such terms.

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#85

Post by AndrewBissell »

phtrivier wrote: post #77
rjsw wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't you just set fire to a few tyres after getting vaccinated ?

Ironicaly, the "reward" for beating the epidemic (if we ever manage to) will be a currently suspended pension reform. So I suspect we'll get thz burnt tyres then (and I would not be surprised if "quasi mandatory" vacciation acts as a background reason for people anger - much like the yellow jacket movement was ostensibly about taxes on gas, and unofficially about speed limitation changes.)

It was nice of Macron to exempt law enforcement from the vaccine mandates and pension "reforms," wouldn't want to have any of the country's police forces crossing the barricades to the other side.

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#86

Post by clairity »

phtrivier wrote: post #79
clairity wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "And I hate being forced into a _team_." you're not being forced onto a team. no one is making you identify with a party or group. you're doing that to yourself by buckling to whatever social pressures you perceive around you. you can simply stop buckling and still hold the same beliefs. and science is not a team. that's politization talking. science is a process for generating a working body of knowledge, a body t…

The discussions I have had today sor far (this one included) have felt very "two sided". Whereas I'm a tad ambivalent about the situation. I suspect the decision will have a good (from the authorities point of view) effect on vaccine procrastinators, a bad but manageable effect on die hard antivaxxers, and a terrible, unpredicable and underestimated effect on the people who where hesitant, but will have to get their…

objectively so far, both covid and vaccines have tiny risk of death (with that said, it’s generally ok for people under uncertainty to reach different conclusions (assuming relative independence) based on the same data. it’s not ok for some people to try to clobber the conclusions of others under uncertainty, which is what vaccinations being mandated effectively does.

when the uncertainty can be bounded objectively to being really tiny with high confidence (which may take many years, even decades), then a mandate might make sense (e.g., mmr vaccines for kids). but absent that high confidence, this one sounds premature.

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#87

Post by senectus1 »

I recently got both my Pfizer shots.

1st one was super simple and easy... not even a sore arm.

2nd one, 3 weeks later was a different story. approx 15 hours after the shot I woke up from a decent nights sleep feeling like i'd been hit by a truck.

everything ached, muscles, joints, eyeballs even my teeth hurt. Migraine like headache that triggered painful spikes with light and sound or head movements. At lunch time I dragged my sorry arse out of bed to make a meal and nearly passed out in the kitchen. If I hadn't laid down on the kitchen floor I might have seriously caused injury to myself. I was super nauseous and light headed, my heart felt like it was fluttering out its last. about 20 mins after laying down i crawled to the couch for an hour then went back to bed.

the next day I felt a lot better, was still achy and fuzzy headed but much much better. The third day I was almost normal again and now a week later I'm just fine.

Worse side effect I've ever had, but I still count it as totally worth it.

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#88

Post by rsynnott »

beiller wrote: post #16
xeromal wrote: post #11

I like the process the author walked through. I'll paste one of the paragraphs. "So as the CDC link shows, the choice is clear: mass vaccination does indeed have rare side effects, but mass infection with the coronavirus (which is the only other choice) is absolutely worse. And to reiterate a point that’s been made many times, the faster we can vaccinate people, the lower the chances we have of encountering a new var…

I am mostly on board with the vaccine, going to get my 2nd shot soon. But I do have a worry; This is setting a precedent where instead of treating disease now, we will preemptively vaccinate. It actually seems morally wrong to not take these steps to preemptively vaccinate. But will all these new vaccinations cause a virus to adapt to be more viral, similarly to how antibiotics has the potential to make bacteria resi…

> This is setting a precedent where instead of treating disease now, we will preemptively vaccinate

That has been the general approach for over a century, yes, particularly for diseases without effective treatments.

> But will all these new vaccinations cause a virus to adapt to be more viral, similarly to how antibiotics has the potential to make bacteria resistant?

No particular reason to think so, and it hasn’t happened before. We don’t have super-smallpox, say.

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#89

Post by cma »

AndrewBissell wrote: post #10
herbst wrote: post #7

So the fact that we as world do a really bad job at vaccinating in countries with lower income will ultimately assure that new strains show up that are even more resistant against the vaccine? Is there any data if we are even fast enough? I mean some people are closer to their third shot than others getting their first in developing countries.

> So the fact that we as world do a really bad job at vaccinating in countries with lower income will ultimately assure that new strains show up that are even more resistant against the vaccine? Exactly what would be the feasible logistical plan to put a shot in the arm of every single person on the entire planet at nearly the same time in order to (supposedly) forestall the evolution of new variants? Is there any hi…

It mutates at a much lower rate than flu. And despite that, flu shots sill make sense even with animal resevoirs, holdouts, etc.

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#90

Post by AndrewBissell »

cma wrote: post #89
AndrewBissell wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So the fact that we as world do a really bad job at vaccinating in countries with lower income will ultimately assure that new strains show up that are even more resistant against the vaccine? Exactly what would be the feasible logistical plan to put a shot in the arm of every single person on the entire planet at nearly the same time in order to (supposedly) forestall the evolution of new variants? Is there any hi…

It mutates at a much lower rate than flu. And despite that, flu shots sill make sense even with animal resevoirs, holdouts, etc.

Do they completely eliminate influenza the way that it's being claimed the Covid vaccines would, if only uptake were high enough?
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