More on Vaccine Side Effects • Hacker News Board

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#71

Post by msandford » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 7:50 PM UTC

standardUser wrote: post #14

herbst wrote: post #7

So the fact that we as world do a really bad job at vaccinating in countries with lower income will ultimately assure that new strains show up that are even more resistant against the vaccine? Is there any data if we are even fast enough? I mean some people are closer to their third shot than others getting their first in developing countries.

That may be the least of our worries. In the wealthy countries that now have universal access to free vaccines, we're seeing large populations that can't crack 50% of people vaccinated. So, even if we had an infinite supply of vaccines we could beam down from space to anyone on the planet who wanted it, we'd still run into the problem of too many people not wanting it.

What bums me out the most is that it doesn't seem like it's even ok to ask why some people don't seem to want it and to figure out if they can be convinced.

I'm sure some folks have ideological opposition but it seems like a lot of the discussion is about how they're bad people for not doing what they're told to or supposed to want to. I don't feel like I have ever convinced anyone of anything by arguing to them that they're wrong. Most of the time when you change someone's mind it's by listening deeply and figuring out what they really mean or really want rather than what they're saying.

I'm sure I've missed something important but I can't shake the feeling that the vaccine debate is just another battle in the growing war of political polarization.

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#72

Post by briantakita » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 7:51 PM UTC

tbabb wrote: post #32

olah_1 wrote: post #22

I'm hearing a lot of people say that even if you get the vaccine, you can still get covid. Is that true?

If you're vaccinated, it's rare to get it. If you get it, it's likely to be mild or completely asymptomatic. Basically no one who's been vaccinated has died.

> Basically no one who's been vaccinated has died.

Somebody dying 15 minutes after receiving the so-called vaccine is quite a coincidence. The problem is twofold. Anybody who died while having Covid was diagnosed as a Covid death, even if they already had terminal cancer or was involved with a fatal accident. Anybody who died after receiving a covid vaccine is treated as if the vaccine had no effect on their health. There needs to be a transparent audit on how these number came about. Autopsies need to be released as well. The opponents of the vaccines see glaring contradictions & obvious manipulation of the data.

https://www.bitchute.com/video/MLl3YTV70iYC/

The other major issue is that vaccine manufacturers & pushers are exempt from legal liability. They could introduce a genocidal poison & no court of law would be able to touch them.

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#73

Post by briantakita » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 8:01 PM UTC

cunthorpe wrote: post #68

AndrewBissell wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha, multiple European countries have halted administration of the AstraZeneca vaccine in people under 60 because they can't be sure that the benefits outweigh the risks, and you still have people fretting that "these darn skeptics just won't listen to Stats And Logic!" This whole line of argument that "the population-wide risks of the virus are outweighed by the (publicly acknowledged) population-wide risks of the…

They halted it because they have a choice now, not because the vaccine is worse than COVID. Did you read the article? Probably not because you’re spouting the same nonsense as antivaxers. Look at the stats and remember this is a pandemic: Your choice affects others. The reality is that you’re just selfish. Edit: Rereading some articles about the stop reminded me that the stop was a political decision more than anythi…

The problem with statistics is that it's very easy to lie using the statistics. Those who control the information are able to craft whatever statistics they want & nobody can audit the numbers or the counting because the information is simply not made available to the public. The only way to get the actual numbers to the public is for a whistle-blower to come forward, to the risk of that whistle-blower's career or life.

We are back to trusting the mechanic who says we need to replace the entire engine. Want to get a second opinion? Well, you can only get a second opinion from another mechanic that the mechanic approves of. All other mechanics are censored & have their licenses stripped from them.

The medical industry has been caught lying to the public, saying for years there are no adverse affects due to vaccination. Now that there too much public evidence, the medical industry wants to continue to control the conversation with their statistics that are probably fabricated or P-hacked.

There is no legal liability for vaccine manufacturers or pushers. If Dr. Mengele were alive today, he could do what he did to the Jews without any legal consequences by calling his "treatment" a vaccine.

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#74

Post by cmrdporcupine » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 8:01 PM UTC

standardUser wrote: post #14

herbst wrote: post #7

So the fact that we as world do a really bad job at vaccinating in countries with lower income will ultimately assure that new strains show up that are even more resistant against the vaccine? Is there any data if we are even fast enough? I mean some people are closer to their third shot than others getting their first in developing countries.

That may be the least of our worries. In the wealthy countries that now have universal access to free vaccines, we're seeing large populations that can't crack 50% of people vaccinated. So, even if we had an infinite supply of vaccines we could beam down from space to anyone on the planet who wanted it, we'd still run into the problem of too many people not wanting it.

Yep it's depressing here in Ontario -- while the overall vaccination rates are pretty good (nearing 70% of total pop for first dose and 50% for fully) the vaccination rates of people aged 12-39 are pretty bad at 68% for first dose and for 12-29 only 66% and the supply of vaccines is starting to pile up.

Meanwhile 95% of seniors 70+ have been first dosed (and 82% fully).

Basically young people aren't getting it at the same rate as the elderly, and not because it's not available. Daily first dose rates have plummeted as the supply has increased.

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#75

Post by AndrewBissell » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 8:46 PM UTC

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #74

standardUser wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be the least of our worries. In the wealthy countries that now have universal access to free vaccines, we're seeing large populations that can't crack 50% of people vaccinated. So, even if we had an infinite supply of vaccines we could beam down from space to anyone on the planet who wanted it, we'd still run into the problem of too many people not wanting it.

Yep it's depressing here in Ontario -- while the overall vaccination rates are pretty good (nearing 70% of total pop for first dose and 50% for fully) the vaccination rates of people aged 12-39 are pretty bad at 68% for first dose and for 12-29 only 66% and the supply of vaccines is starting to pile up. Meanwhile 95% of seniors 70+ have been first dosed (and 82% fully). Basically young people aren't getting it at the…

> Basically young people aren't getting it at the same rate as the elderly, and not because it's not available.

Wow, it's as though they have an entirely different risk calculus from the elderly.

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#76

Post by omegaworks » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 9:21 PM UTC

desine wrote: post #51

omegaworks wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The loss of life due to the virus is tragic, but has been mostly the old and infirm. Why do the old and infirm deserve to die? >the mRNA concept has been in labs for 20 years, but it's only been in labs mRNA therapies have been in clinical trials for over a decade now[1]. 1. https://www.clinicaltrialsarena.com/comment/evolution-mrna-v...

I didn't state that the old and infirm deserve to die. I stated that the young seem to be more prone to these side effects, and that quantifying these two against each other is problematic. Yes, clinical trials tend to be done in labs. I'm speaking colloquially here. A clinical trial of a few thousand is not nearly the same as a global push to vaccinate everyone from teenage years up.

>I didn't state that the old and infirm deserve to die.

When the few-in-a-million chance of complications for the young and fit are more tragic than the 610x rate of horrible, suffocating, isolated death of the old and infirm[1], you're making space for eugenics.

1. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/investi...

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#77

Post by phtrivier » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 9:27 PM UTC

rjsw wrote: post #27

phtrivier wrote: post #3

I would have noded and approved this article 24 hours ago. Now vaccination is about to be made de-facto mandatory in France (with a snarky timing that will prevent some people from getting all their shots before restrictions pop in.) ; and I know that I'm going to be a bit less receptive, because of the tension between "this is sane science" and "this is a terrible bet on the future from a politician that got a lot o…

Couldn't you just set fire to a few tyres after getting vaccinated ?

Ironicaly, the "reward" for beating the epidemic (if we ever manage to) will be a currently suspended pension reform.

So I suspect we'll get thz burnt tyres then (and I would not be surprised if "quasi mandatory" vacciation acts as a background reason for people anger - much like the yellow jacket movement was ostensibly about taxes on gas, and unofficially about speed limitation changes.)

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#78

Post by omegaworks » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 9:37 PM UTC

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #74

standardUser wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be the least of our worries. In the wealthy countries that now have universal access to free vaccines, we're seeing large populations that can't crack 50% of people vaccinated. So, even if we had an infinite supply of vaccines we could beam down from space to anyone on the planet who wanted it, we'd still run into the problem of too many people not wanting it.

Yep it's depressing here in Ontario -- while the overall vaccination rates are pretty good (nearing 70% of total pop for first dose and 50% for fully) the vaccination rates of people aged 12-39 are pretty bad at 68% for first dose and for 12-29 only 66% and the supply of vaccines is starting to pile up. Meanwhile 95% of seniors 70+ have been first dosed (and 82% fully). Basically young people aren't getting it at the…

Does Canada offer universal sick leave? Can young people afford to miss two days of work if they have fatigue after dose 2?

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#79

Post by phtrivier » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 9:38 PM UTC

clairity wrote: post #24

phtrivier wrote: post #3

I would have noded and approved this article 24 hours ago. Now vaccination is about to be made de-facto mandatory in France (with a snarky timing that will prevent some people from getting all their shots before restrictions pop in.) ; and I know that I'm going to be a bit less receptive, because of the tension between "this is sane science" and "this is a terrible bet on the future from a politician that got a lot o…

> "And I hate being forced into a _team_." you're not being forced onto a team. no one is making you identify with a party or group. you're doing that to yourself by buckling to whatever social pressures you perceive around you. you can simply stop buckling and still hold the same beliefs. and science is not a team. that's politization talking. science is a process for generating a working body of knowledge, a body t…

The discussions I have had today sor far (this one included) have felt very "two sided".

Whereas I'm a tad ambivalent about the situation.

I suspect the decision will have a good (from the authorities point of view) effect on vaccine procrastinators, a bad but manageable effect on die hard antivaxxers, and a terrible, unpredicable and underestimated effect on the people who where hesitant, but will have to get their jab to keep their job.

Time will tell if it was worth it. That's what I hate - having to pick a side on what's the best outcome based on a relatively short span of data (every days gets us farther from the vaccine "bad surprise", but 6+ months of hindsight stills leaves me freightenned, sorry ! Not gonna lie.)

I'm not going to protest and ask for anyone's head yet. I wrote my Mom to express reasonable doubt and practical concerns, but beyond that I will of course bow to the decision of the democratically elected body.

That does not make conversation will concerned loved friends and loved ones any simpler.

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#80

Post by cmrdporcupine » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 9:56 PM UTC

AndrewBissell wrote: post #75

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep it's depressing here in Ontario -- while the overall vaccination rates are pretty good (nearing 70% of total pop for first dose and 50% for fully) the vaccination rates of people aged 12-39 are pretty bad at 68% for first dose and for 12-29 only 66% and the supply of vaccines is starting to pile up. Meanwhile 95% of seniors 70+ have been first dosed (and 82% fully). Basically young people aren't getting it at the…

> Basically young people aren't getting it at the same rate as the elderly, and not because it's not available. Wow, it's as though they have an entirely different risk calculus from the elderly.

If you're thinking about only yourself, sure.