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The History of Karate

smithsonianmag.com

41–50 of 112 posts

Re: The History of Karate

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Krav Maga is the martial art that I've always thought of as actually useful for self-defense i'm not big on martial arts or even mma but for some reason i've seen this argument in various places often enough that i've also seen the appropriate response: if that were true then all of the most successful mma fighters would be krav maga experts. in actuality not a single one practices krav maga. the proof is in the pud…

Maybe because MMA is a sport and not an actual life or death combat? I'm sure if they allowed things like throat jabs, eye stabs, crotch shots and immediate joint dislocation upon grapple we'd see a lot more krav maga techniques.

This is a popular argument but it doesn't work if you think about it for a while.

Put a good striker in a fight with someone who isn't a good striker. The skilled fighter would evade most of what the unskilled fighter threw at them. There isn't even much need for blocking and covering if most of what is coming at you isn't making significant contact in the first place. Now take out the rules. If the unskilled fighter couldn't land a punch on the skilled fighter before, why would you expect them to suddenly be able to land an extremely precise strike to a vulnerable area now? And why wouldn't the skilled fighter also be able to do the same but better since they still have more power and accuracy and the unskilled fighter still has weaker defence?

It's the same with grappling. It's true that a joint lock can be devastating and that's why we usually disallow most of them in combat sports, but to be applied reliably you need some control over the area around the joint. Put a good grappler in a fight with someone who isn't a good grappler. The good grappler is going to control the position better. Now take out the rules. If the unskilled fighter couldn't get a good position to control the skilled fighter before, why would you expect them to suddenly be able to apply an effective joint lock now? And why wouldn't the skilled fighter also be able to do the same but better since they still have a better position to work from and the unskilled fighter still has weaker defence?

MMA is a sport and an MMA match isn't like a "real" fight for all kinds of reasons but simple, efficient, effective techniques such as you see in MMA matches are a good foundation for "real" fighting too, even if you might choose to add other types of training as well for use outside the controlled environment.

Re: The History of Karate

#42
post #19
post #8

I was a great believer in karate as a combat sport for many years. The arrival of MMA proved the true effectiveness of each of the martial arts in an actual combat situation. Karate has value in combat, but it’s certainly not as effective as I originally thought. I took my son to do karate training for a year and watched the classes and honestly it seemed pretty worthless to me as a way of learning to fight/defend yo…

The street effectiveness of a MA is a function of time spent sparring, something that is prevalent in the arts you mention, in addition to coverage of standing and ground game. Strikers will have just a brief window of opportunity before grapplers take them down. On the other hand, even super effective grappling art like BJJ becomes pretty useless if you face two assailants.

Against two assailants, if there is no chance to escape the fight through words or running, the best deal is to do as much damage as possible as quickly as possible to the more confident of the two. The other will usually lose the fire. Speaking as a stand-up striker. Ymmv.

Re: The History of Karate

#43

"In a Western-style sport, the aim is gaining victory at all costs,” This statement most resonated with me. I had to give up playing hockey because - at the lowest grade - people paid no respect to you. If they could kick the ball and the ref didn't see it, they would continue play. If they could hit the ball hard at you from point blank, that is fine. You see similar in elite sport, players in "football" of whatever…

I really don’t see it like that, true athletes aim to be their best and not just win using any dirty trick. Think Usain Bolt for example.

You are right in that there are gracious players. Not all are dubious. But sadly it seems it is increasingly not the way to bet.

Re: The History of Karate

#44
post #8

I was a great believer in karate as a combat sport for many years. The arrival of MMA proved the true effectiveness of each of the martial arts in an actual combat situation. Karate has value in combat, but it’s certainly not as effective as I originally thought. I took my son to do karate training for a year and watched the classes and honestly it seemed pretty worthless to me as a way of learning to fight/defend yo…

* If your goal is for your child to learn to fight, then do boxing or kickboxing or Brazilian jiu jitsu.*

Yes and I’d add wrestling.

Re: The History of Karate

#45
post #22
post #8

I was a great believer in karate as a combat sport for many years. The arrival of MMA proved the true effectiveness of each of the martial arts in an actual combat situation. Karate has value in combat, but it’s certainly not as effective as I originally thought. I took my son to do karate training for a year and watched the classes and honestly it seemed pretty worthless to me as a way of learning to fight/defend yo…

To train to win a fight you need sparing. Full contact sparing in boxing, kickboxing, or even karate has dangers. A practitioner has to work up to full contact sparing in a controlled way. And even then there is risk of brain damage. I'm not up to date with the latest science, but I wouldn't risk my child's brain on something as unimportant as winning a fight. On the other hand, with grappling sports like wrestling,…

They don’t have to compete in full contact. Uncontrolled bjj will break your arms, elbows etc easily

Re: The History of Karate

#46
Sad to see no mention of Ryu Ryuko and Higaonna Sensei[0] in the section describing karate in the early 1900s. Higaonna Sensei was the person whose likeness became “Sensei Miyagi” in the Karate Kid movie. Ironically, Kanryo’s student Chojun Miyagi[1] was the one who established another well-known style of karate, Okinawan Goju-Ryu[2]

[0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higaonna_Kanry%C5%8D

[1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C5%8Djun_Miyagi

[2]: The practice of Goju-Ryu is focused on both mastery of physical control and mental focus (summarizing my experience in this). With the death of Sensei Miyagi, however, the lineage split between his sons who each claimed to be the heads of their own branches of the system.

Edit: Another peeve. In the very beginning of the article they try to group the practice with unconventional weapons — farming tools, bo staffs, etc — into naha-te when the reality is this branch of practice is kobudo. I wish that the author did more research on this section because there are plenty of sources documenting this portion of the art’s history.

Re: The History of Karate

#47
post #8

I was a great believer in karate as a combat sport for many years. The arrival of MMA proved the true effectiveness of each of the martial arts in an actual combat situation. Karate has value in combat, but it’s certainly not as effective as I originally thought. I took my son to do karate training for a year and watched the classes and honestly it seemed pretty worthless to me as a way of learning to fight/defend yo…

I don't know many parents whose goal is for our children to learn to fight. We want them to be strong and healthy. To learn to have fun exercising, to learn control and the ability to listen to others, learn from others, and work with others.

Martials arts is great for all that. So are other sports and activities. I've studied martial arts for 20 years of my life - never did I have a goal during that time of learning to fight, but I loved practicing, and loved the community of people I spent time with in those years.

Re: The History of Karate

#48
post #39
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it a "Western stereotype of the Oriental" if it's also been part of Chinese culture since time immemorial?

It's a Western stereotype of the Orient if one aspect of Chinese culture is exaggerated and blown out of proportion to the point of caricature.

"exaggerated to the point of caricature" is de rigeur for wuxia.

Re: The History of Karate

#49
I'm going to get on my high horse to tell an anecdote about why I'm mildly suspicious every time someone suggest that karate is not violent enough to be useful.

I practiced karate for years, and I still would if I hadn't moved far away. My teacher was a fan of exchanges with other schools, which is how we ended up visiting a Jujitsu school to learn some grappling moves. The instructor was a police officer that worked at the local prison.

During our first break, the instructor excitedly told my teacher that he recently found a second-hand book with techniques that his Jujitsu line had banned years ago for being too brutal. He was starting to bring them back. Later on that day he showed us such a technique that could, in theory, paralyze a man for life. He seemed very proud of that one, and was looking forward to try some of his new knowledge in his next prison riot (his words, not mine).

I shudder to think of the type of BS macho mentality that one would get from training under this guy for years - I've met plenty of karate instructors from all over the world, and they were all great teachers and great human beings. Given that I personally know of three people who had to use their karate skills for self defense (two robberies and one home invasion at night), that seems to me good enough: you learn how to defend yourself in a realistic situation, but also respect, self-improvement, and a healthy general distaste for violence.

Every time someone suggests that karate doesn't work because it wouldn't be as effective in a modern war zone, I remember that guy.

Re: The History of Karate

#50
post #22
post #8

I was a great believer in karate as a combat sport for many years. The arrival of MMA proved the true effectiveness of each of the martial arts in an actual combat situation. Karate has value in combat, but it’s certainly not as effective as I originally thought. I took my son to do karate training for a year and watched the classes and honestly it seemed pretty worthless to me as a way of learning to fight/defend yo…

To train to win a fight you need sparing. Full contact sparing in boxing, kickboxing, or even karate has dangers. A practitioner has to work up to full contact sparing in a controlled way. And even then there is risk of brain damage. I'm not up to date with the latest science, but I wouldn't risk my child's brain on something as unimportant as winning a fight. On the other hand, with grappling sports like wrestling,…

Full-contact always implies dangers, hence the need to differentiate it from light sparring or whatever. I once read somewhere that high school wrestling has the highest career-ending injuries of any major sport, at 40 percent. Football was closer to 30.

But I agree head injuries are a far bigger concern than elbow/knee etc. And making striking arts safe tends to make them unrealistic. So grappling sports like Judo are a much better combination of self-defense and safety.

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