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Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

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Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#111

Post by denton-scratch »

Spartan-S63 wrote: post #93
mjburgess wrote: post #14

Let's be clear. This is a patent troll company engaged in anti-innovation rent-seeking behaviour. They're seeking billions in payouts and provide zero innovation, research, development, etc. Just because it's targeting Apple doesn't make it right. Companies of this type should be illegal. A patent is a government-sponsored monopoly which shouldn't be "pooled" by "patent companies" whose only purpose is to use the sta…

Curious: what might the unintended consequences be of making patents non-transferable?

Only entities with the money to defend patents would bother to acquire them. Owning a patent would become useless to small-fry. So only large entities would own patents.

The solution is to stop registering stupid patents, and (this would require a massive effort) invalidate all the stupid patents that are already on file.

Or perhaps, change the law so that if an alleged infringer turns out to have "infringed" an invalid patent, all costs go to the alleged infringer. That would encourage people to fight patent trolls, rather than just roll over.

[Edit] I suppose that would only work if the petitioning NPE were required to deposit a bond with the court.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#113

Post by bell-cot »

pabs3 wrote: post #9

Hmm, I wonder what the patents are about.

A slightly-critical point, which seems 99.9% ignored here. I found an article - https://www.iphonehacks.com/2021/07/apple-threatens-exit-uk-... - saying "A UK high court judge has ruled that Apple has infringed on two patents of Optis Cellular.". But nothing more.

If the 2 patents are "good quality" - really novel, not a bit obvious to actual experts in that niche (at the time), etc. - then the reasonable (morally, not legally) argument would be about what is a fair rate for Apple to pay to use them.

If the 2 patents are "the usual patent system abuse crap" - vague walls of buzzwords, prior art but with "using $NameOfNewTechnology" inserted in a bunch of places, or such - then the reasonable argument (again morally) would be about why our wretched legal and patent systems are so badly infested with such toxic swill.

But Apple's seeming threat to exit the UK market makes for a lot of drama, and that's mostly what people care about.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#114

Post by gcthomas »

MR4D wrote: post #39

It seems like this is the part that most offends Apple: “* In 2020, the UK Supreme Court ruled a UK court can set the rate for patent payments worldwide, despite the court only being able to consider the infringement of UK patents.*” If every country took that approach that the UK Court seems to be taking, international trade would suffer greatly.

This is not for patent disputes in general, only disputes involving standard essential patents (SEPs), which these are. The court took standards setting organisation powers to decide fair, reasonable, and non‑discriminatory (FRAND) terms for global application. FRAND licences are global by their nature, so we shouldn't be surprised that the Supreme Court asserted this in its decision.

This isn't UK over-reach, but an application of international standard approach, afaict.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#115

Post by gcthomas »

Zenst wrote: post #4
onion2k wrote: post #2

How much the fees should be and how Apple react to them are separate issues. Given the fact that Apple Retail UK posted a profit of just £39m in 2020 though, it seems likely that they'll have to exit the market as they won't be able afford even a reasonably low patent fee. Assuming that their reported profit wasn't just a massive lie to avoid tax, obviously.

In 2020, the UK was still part of the EU and with that Apple could and did move much EU based sales to Ireland for tax purposes. So with that in mind, along with how companies game the tax systems, I take any figure with a pinch of salt. That said Apple postulating this as retaliation to a legal court case pertaining to a valid patent, does seem a bit purile. But the real question I have is - if these are core patent…

This _is_ a FRAND case, which is why the decision will cover global licence payments.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#116

Post by denton-scratch »

onion2k wrote: post #2

How much the fees should be and how Apple react to them are separate issues. Given the fact that Apple Retail UK posted a profit of just £39m in 2020 though, it seems likely that they'll have to exit the market as they won't be able afford even a reasonably low patent fee. Assuming that their reported profit wasn't just a massive lie to avoid tax, obviously.

Apple's profits fetch up in some tax-haven, as far as I'm aware. They have a problem, because they hold so much cash in tax-havens, that they can't repatriate without incurring enormous tax liabilities.

So yes, the reported profit was just a massive lie.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#117

Post by deregulateMed »

paulcole wrote: post #27
moshiv wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will never happen. Just have to count the number of iphones and macs in the hands of people with power.

Also it’s a nearly free victory to anybody challenging the incumbents in power at the time. Imagine being one of the people on duty when Apple (a hugely popular consumer brand) pulls out of your country. Hard to explain that one to the constituency and come out looking good.

Yeah Apple has a far bigger marketing budget than any politician.

A politician could be correct that 1+1=2, but Apple will twist your emotions until you cave.

Or at least that works on some people.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#118

Post by jbluepolarbear »

throw0101a wrote: post #22
mjburgess wrote: post #14

Let's be clear. This is a patent troll company engaged in anti-innovation rent-seeking behaviour. They're seeking billions in payouts and provide zero innovation, research, development, etc. Just because it's targeting Apple doesn't make it right. Companies of this type should be illegal. A patent is a government-sponsored monopoly which shouldn't be "pooled" by "patent companies" whose only purpose is to use the sta…

> A patent is a government-sponsored monopoly which shouldn't be "pooled" by "patent companies" whose only purpose is to use the state to extract money from companies actually producing goods. Devil's advocate: If the original holder of a patent is a small fry, and does not have the resources to go after the big fish if they take advantage of the patent, shouldn't the original inventor have the right to sell the pate…

How does that harbor fair trade? Neither the inventor nor the holder have made any attempt to bring a product to market.

It should be the burden of the court to prove that the patent was actively being used (by the holder) to produce a product and that the infringement directly hurt the potential target market of the product in question.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#119

Post by Buttons840 »

IfOnlyYouKnew wrote: post #91
snarf21 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that is the material change we need. Patents must be used as an active and relevant part of your product or you don't deserve protection. The point is to encourage innovation and from someone from basically just reselling your idea. If you aren't selling it, then why do you deserve protection?

It makes literally no difference, as the parent comment already mentioned. You deserve protection for coming up with the technology, not for using it. These patent trolls are one of the methods to support a research program. Universities, for example, aren't set up to sell devices. As long as the patent is for some actual innovation, there is nothing wrong with this market structure, economically or morally.

I personally consider it morally wrong to deny people from implementing ideas of their own invention.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#120

Post by willis936 »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #44
willis936 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would Apple pay the fine?

To avoid their executives going to prison.

Their executives in the US? Going to trial in the UK, where the company would no longer do business? How does that work, exactly? Has the US ever extradited a white collar criminal?
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