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Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

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Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#91

Post by IfOnlyYouKnew »

snarf21 wrote: post #84
onion2k wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It shouldn't matter who owns a patent. If the person or company who registered it has decided to 'cash it in' and sell it to a company whose business is patent licensing is OK. Whether or not the patent is valid is the important issue. Optis 'won' $506m in the US as well, but the supreme court reverted the decision on Apple's appeal. The UK court has decided that it is valid (for now). Something very important to not…

I think that is the material change we need. Patents must be used as an active and relevant part of your product or you don't deserve protection. The point is to encourage innovation and from someone from basically just reselling your idea. If you aren't selling it, then why do you deserve protection?

It makes literally no difference, as the parent comment already mentioned. You deserve protection for coming up with the technology, not for using it. These patent trolls are one of the methods to support a research program. Universities, for example, aren't set up to sell devices.

As long as the patent is for some actual innovation, there is nothing wrong with this market structure, economically or morally.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#92

Post by jerf »

jsbdk wrote: post #74
thaumasiotes wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you've gotten your example backwards. If you tell me "Pay $X or I'll break your legs", and I say I'll take the broken legs, and you break my legs -- you really want to argue that that's the decision branch where I wasn't really making a choice?

Of course you were... You could've paid.

Common law has the concept of "under duress". I'm sure other legal traditions have something similar. It is also common sense in the US culture in general that you can't be said to agree to having your legs broken in a situation like that.

While the mythical "homo econominus" may say that there's no difference between "give me $$$ or I'll inflict severe negative utility on you" and "give me $$$ or I'll reduce the positive utility you receive from selling goods by the same amount" by saying it's the same amount of utility in absolute terms in both branches, in practice nobody feels or operates that way, and that's with steelmanning this argument by declining to note all the obviously relevant ways in which this metaphor is a mismatch.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#93

Post by Spartan-S63 »

mjburgess wrote: post #14

Let's be clear. This is a patent troll company engaged in anti-innovation rent-seeking behaviour. They're seeking billions in payouts and provide zero innovation, research, development, etc. Just because it's targeting Apple doesn't make it right. Companies of this type should be illegal. A patent is a government-sponsored monopoly which shouldn't be "pooled" by "patent companies" whose only purpose is to use the sta…

Curious: what might the unintended consequences be of making patents non-transferable?

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#94

Post by Mindwipe »

mjburgess wrote: post #28
Tenoke wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are literally fighting it with this case, no? Exiting if they fail will also be great as it might become more clear to those who can change the system how much of a detriment it is.

If apple's UK iPhone profits really are in the c. 50mil range, then a (5 to 10)bn fee to remain is commercially non-viable. Note that this is about Apple's ability to sell an iPhone in the UK, and as far as I can see, it wouldnt affect whether the entire company would remain in the UK. If I were apple, I would withdraw a product from a country which supported this kind of racketeering.

> If I were apple, I would withdraw a product from a country which supported this kind of racketeering.

Lol. If this is "racketeering" then Apple will have to withdraw from literally every Western developed nation.

This case only didn't happen in the US because the court didn't find the patent to be valid, by a thin margin.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#95

Post by aaomidi »

IfOnlyYouKnew wrote: post #91
snarf21 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that is the material change we need. Patents must be used as an active and relevant part of your product or you don't deserve protection. The point is to encourage innovation and from someone from basically just reselling your idea. If you aren't selling it, then why do you deserve protection?

It makes literally no difference, as the parent comment already mentioned. You deserve protection for coming up with the technology, not for using it. These patent trolls are one of the methods to support a research program. Universities, for example, aren't set up to sell devices. As long as the patent is for some actual innovation, there is nothing wrong with this market structure, economically or morally.

Everyone keeps touting that in the future technology will solve climate change.

Will it? Or will we have to wait for the patent period to expire of said technologies.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#96

Post by denton-scratch »

chasil wrote: post #50
onion2k wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It shouldn't matter who owns a patent. If the person or company who registered it has decided to 'cash it in' and sell it to a company whose business is patent licensing is OK. Whether or not the patent is valid is the important issue. Optis 'won' $506m in the US as well, but the supreme court reverted the decision on Apple's appeal. The UK court has decided that it is valid (for now). Something very important to not…

In the interests of demonstrating a harsh penalty for judicial overreach, I would like to see this case made, and Apple abandon the market. I don't know the British system well enough to understand what reaction public opinion would have on members of parliament, but some censure of the judge and reversal of the patent decision could happen.

In any of the British jurisdictions, neither parliament nor the government can dismiss judges. Nor can anyone else.

If they displease the government, then they might not be chosen to head lucrative judicial inquiries - I think that's the only sanction that government can inflict on them.

Neither government nor parliament can "reverse" a patent decision.

Government and parliament have been known to "censure" (criticise) judicial decisions; usually that behaviour provokes a negative reaction among educated people and thoughtful newspapers. It doesn't happen often.

The government can also appeal against sentence in crimnal cases, if they think the sentence was unduly lenient. This is fairly recent statute legislation, and controversial.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#97

Post by Mindwipe »

benjaminjosephw wrote: post #47
arcturus17 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know about your politics, but regardless, “the UK will be able to build an Apple competitor” sounds like a level 99 brexiteer delusion.

Imagining a change in the tech landscape isn't that absurd. If there's a vacuum in the market, do you not think there are capable technology startups in the UK that could fill it?

> Imagining a change in the tech landscape isn't that absurd. If there's a vacuum in the market, do you not think there are capable technology startups in the UK that could fill it?

No.

Samsung, Huawei and Sony would fill it.

There is no UK company that has the scale to be able to deliver a competing product before those companies absorb all the available market share.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#98

Post by ip26 »

IfOnlyYouKnew wrote: post #91
snarf21 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that is the material change we need. Patents must be used as an active and relevant part of your product or you don't deserve protection. The point is to encourage innovation and from someone from basically just reselling your idea. If you aren't selling it, then why do you deserve protection?

It makes literally no difference, as the parent comment already mentioned. You deserve protection for coming up with the technology, not for using it. These patent trolls are one of the methods to support a research program. Universities, for example, aren't set up to sell devices. As long as the patent is for some actual innovation, there is nothing wrong with this market structure, economically or morally.

The whole point of the patent program is to give you a boost in using the technology (to encourage you to come up with it in the first place)

A research program that only produces patents for patent trolls seems like a useless research program.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#99

Post by vmception »

amelius wrote: post #7

When a quasi-monopolist threatens to exit your market ... perhaps the reason why isn't really all that important.

Cute but you forget that countries and municipalities are in competition with each other over attracting business, trillion dollar companies should make good on these threats more often because then they get to come back later for pennies on the dollar

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#100

Post by Mindwipe »

bencollier49 wrote: post #68
benjaminjosephw wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagining a change in the tech landscape isn't that absurd. If there's a vacuum in the market, do you not think there are capable technology startups in the UK that could fill it?

We have tons of opportunities in the UK to build a mobile firm. ARM is based here, for starters. Unfortunately with Brexit it has become fashionable in certain quarters to 'do-down' the UK's capabilities.

> We have tons of opportunities in the UK to build a mobile firm. ARM is based here, for starters. Unfortunately with Brexit it has become fashionable in certain quarters to 'do-down' the UK's capabilities.

The problem with building a mobile firm is that it's extremely expensive capital wise, and difficult.

There has not been an effective new entrant in the market globally in quite some time. It is not "doing the UK down" to suggest that there is no opportunity here for someone who doesn't already do high end phone manufacturing, and it's worth noting that the margins for everyone else in the mobile market are pretty crummy actually.

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