Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Really it was a lose-lose situation. Ignore it and you stack bodies in a freezer truck like in NYC. I can't tell whether this is sarcasm, but in the unlikely event that it's not, how do you explain every place that didn't lockdown having dramatically better numbers than NYC? Surely there's no remaining possibility of regarding lockdowns as a success? What data can possibly conclude this experiment if not the data w…
Overuse of ventilators in the first wave probably killed a ton more people than expected. Once they dialed back ventilator use and established cortison treatments and normal oxygen instead death rates lowered.
Introverts didn't 'win' lockdown
151–160 of 203 posts
Re: Introverts didn't 'win' lockdown
#152Earlier quoted context omitted.
This isn't very HN friendly content and certainly is not meant to be taken at face value, but here's a vid that kind of captures the zeitgeist of the introvert trend: https://youtu.be/ikw4V_x-CFI
Being an introvert doesn't mean you don't like making eye contact or most of the other things that youtuber is saying.
If you go on the r/introvert subreddit there's a load of people talking about their crippling loneliness and social anxiety. These people crave social contact, they don't seem like introverts to me, but they seem to have convinced themselves they have some personality trait that makes social connection impossible.
Re: Introverts didn't 'win' lockdown
#153I must admit the mental health aspect of the pandemic took me somewhat by surprise. Before the pandemic, it hadn't occurred to me that quite so many people were mentally affected by being isolated from others but clearly they are (the fact that it's been a perennial subject in the media ever since the pandemic began seems sufficient evidence). Although I note from some other recent reports it's likely been overstated and that people are actually more resilient than the stories make out.
(Please don't accuse me of denying the fact that many are so affected, I'm only trying to cut to the facts. Also, it is not my intention to make light of the fact that this damn pandemic has caused so many people to suffer greatly through loss of loved ones, loss of their income and their jobs, etc., but if we're to get a reasonable gauge of the facts then we must be mindful to separate out a person's intrinsic introversion/extroversion from that caused by his/her experiences of the pandemic. Right, things like this are never simple.)
One of the problems with stories like this is that of definition. To cut to the chase, we do need to disentangle and cut away a bit of the hype. What actually does it mean to be introverted—and how is introversion different from being, say, shy of others—or just indifferent to them or to certain situations, etc.
For example, if many of these instances of introversion were mistaken and they were in fact cases of shyness then it might account for this headline/story—for in pre-pandemic times, circumstances would have forced shy people to mingle more often and it's likely they would have appreciated the fact that being forced into the company of others would have been good for their psyche.
OK, what I'm really saying is that popular/straw polls of people's psychological state—like the one in this story—are unlikely to be sufficiently rigorous to give us a true picture of the situation—even if their questions are graded (as in this poll)—and thus this may dilute or divert help away from the smaller number who really do need appreciable help.
I'll try to illustrate by example why a simplistic approach to the problem isn't the best idea by being a guinea pig for the poll in the article:
"Are you inclined to keep in the background on social occasions?"
Well, it depends on many things, and with this question I'd rank myself about 3. With groups I know well or reasonably well, I am sometimes the center of attention (in the predominant or amusing sense), at other times I act like everyone else and mingle normally without undue attention. When I'm with a large group of strangers it depends on whether I've a common interest with them or not. If I do, then there's no problem, I can integrate so well that sometimes I'm among the last to leave. If I have little or nothing in common (and I'm required to be there for some reason), then I can be bored shitless (as I find idle chatter boring) and I'll keep in the background—I'll look at the ceiling or out the window, etc. (and given half a chance I'd likely leave). On the other hand, if I'm in this group together with a small number of people that I know then I'll separate out and only mingle with them whilst essentially ignoring the larger group.
"Are you inclined to limit your acquaintances to a select few?"
Sometimes yes, sometimes no (here too I'd rank myself about 3). I have a reasonable number of acquaintances (although I've never tried to count them). Also, I'd have to rate each person on a similar 1-to-5 scale depending on the closeness of our relationship. Obviously, my relationship with people in Group 5 would be much closer than to those in Group 1.
"Do you like to have many social engagements?"
Generally not, most are trivial and a waste of time and I've usually much better things to do. That said, I rarely miss an opportunity to meet and socialize with friends and close acquaintances (sometimes I've even gone to the extent of traveling across international borders to do so). Note: As it stands, I am unable to rank this question, as the answer is highly dependent on circumstance. I'd rate my first comment about 2 and the second between 4 and 5.
"Are you a happy-go-lucky individual?"
In some aspects yes, but after an examination of the integrand I reckon I'd be classified as a 'no'. If I had to rate myself then it'd be between 2 and 3.
"Do you like to play pranks upon others?"
Yes, but not often, as pranks can go very wrong and people can either be hurt or their feelings hurt (I try definitely not to embarrass people and I'm upset if I do). I only play pranks on people I know well and even then, I'm careful who I select (personality must be considered, otherwise pranks backfire). Also, I know that pranks are intrinsically reciprocal and that means I'll eventually end up being the 'victim' with almost 100% certainty.
Thus, it is obvious both introversion and extroversion have degrees and these traits can be inherent to an individual and or they depend on his or her situation and circumstance, it's unfortunate that popular reports don't echo facts as they actually exist.
Read into the following comment whatever you wish: whilst the pandemic has forced many changes to my life such as being in lockdown and often isolated from others/family for long periods, I can say honestly that this isolation has never been an issue with me. In fact, I've rather enjoyed the lockdown despite its obvious inconveniences. Being free of having to bother with social events, or being on time for work or appointments, or having to deal with a myriad of other time-driven events, has been rather liberating. As the article points out, I've been free to do many other activities that introverts find 'interesting and energizing'. And they're mostly activities that I otherwise have never had sufficient time to do—anyway not to the extent that I would have wished. I've even had more time to read HN articles and to make pontifical pronouncements thereon. ;-)
Nevertheless, despite having so many obvious introverted traits I know that I'm far from being a definitive/classical case of introversion—as my extroversion must often have its say. As I said, these matters are complex.
Re: Introverts didn't 'win' lockdown
#154Earlier quoted context omitted.
You seem overly attached to the label of being an introvert. The whole post is slightly confusing to me in fact. If you've concluded that other things than increasing social skills are more worthwhile pursuits for you in your life, then that's great. You do you. However, you can't then also complain in the next breath about what your lack of social skills, that you won't spend an effort acquiring, exclude you from. "…
I am not terribly attached to the term introvert but it seems the best available term that communicates a dynamic I experience. Maybe lean into that confusion? Certainly, we would agree that to socialize one needs to try doing it and grow. Sometimes there will be failures and consequences. I've done the work to acquire my social skills and would hazard a speculation that I might have more sophisticated social skills…
I'd enjoy doing that with people I work with, but I don't think they'd appreciate me asking.
Perhaps as a result I come off as one of those people that doesn't want to dig in to any depth about the kinds of life aspects you listed.
But I'm optimising for getting along at work without coming across as intrusive and probing. I don't want to make people uncomfortable by showing too much interest in their personal lives and excitements, if they aren't volunteering it. There are definitely people who want their work life to remain very separate from the rest of their life.
If I'm doing that, willing to engage in deep conversations about wider aspects of life but optimising to not be intrusive at work, perhaps some of the other people in your work circle are also doing so.
Re: Introverts didn't 'win' lockdown
#155Earlier quoted context omitted.
Agree! One of the most harmful beliefs about the concept of intro-/extroversion is that it is something you are and not something you do. Many people limit themselves massively because of how they've labeled themselves. Especially in "strong introverts", the label is often used as a convenient excuse for not going through the often painful process of trying to improve their confidence skills and social skills. "I'm a…
You are right people shouldn't be prescribed labels. You think people are limiting themselves because of labels. Isn't it the other way around? People act in such a way that they believe a label describes their personality or behavioral pattern? I think you are the one mislabeling people. Being an introvert doesn't mean social skills are low. You might work with or be friends with strong introverts and have no idea.…
It seems to be a moderately common assumption in discussions like these that the extrovert is the one with social skills and the introvert finds them difficult, but the reverse is often true.
Think about someone who is often out and seems to be consistently loud, boisterous and showing poor social awareness to the point of irritating others in social settings. That's a sign of poor social skills that I'd associate with extroversion.
Compare with someone who is quiet, thoughtful, and rarely seen, but when they are seen they seem to be caring, interesting and listen thoughtfully and engage with each person they talk with, leaving a positive impression each time. That's high social skill.
Re: Introverts didn't 'win' lockdown
#156Re: Introverts didn't 'win' lockdown
#157Earlier quoted context omitted.
Overuse of ventilators in the first wave probably killed a ton more people than expected. Once they dialed back ventilator use and established cortison treatments and normal oxygen instead death rates lowered.
How did ventilators kill people?
- are intended for use for a few days, not a few weeks. The artificial air pressure destroys lung cells and capillaries
- patients are sedated to avoid pulling out tubes. This weakens both their lung function and the rest of their body due to immobilization, including bed sores. Usually their trachea is damaged and they cannot talk after removing the tubes for a period of time, and must do physical rehabilitation afterwards.
- doctors and nurses consider patients on ventilators the sickest in the hospital, followed by recent ventilator patients
- being in a hospital for a month or more exposes patients to other infections, which are not immediately apparent in a sedated patient
- China warned about ventilator use being usually unproductive with corona very early in 2020, so it took a while for US doctors to understand that the low oxygen levels measured in corona patients was not a critical thing in most cases if they could still breathe on their own.
ER doctors are not researchers, so they follow previous recommendations until told otherwise.
Re: Introverts didn't 'win' lockdown
#158Sure there was a bit of unhappiness with the virus situation, but once I figured out that I didn't have to constantly watch the news for scraps of info, and got on with my day, and once I figured out that every day looked the same, and I needed to change it up a bit, it was nothing but happiness.
Recently one of my coworkers got lonely and decided to tell everyone else to come work from the office one day and we could go drinking afterwards. Nope. As much as I like my coworkers, but I've zero desire to commute to the office.
Another thing that I've noticed is that now that there's no external interaction with those same coworkers, I have zero desire for alcohol, and I've never felt better.
Re: Introverts didn't 'win' lockdown
#159One thing I have missed as an introvert is the "people watching" aspect. I don't need to be at the centre of things and don't enjoy big social occasions, but do enjoy walking around a bustling city, taking in the atmosphere. It feels like the world has stood still (or at least slowed) and that has made just my normal day-to-day less interesting. Introverts aren't disinterested in society - they just like to experienc…
well it's not really a binary choice. it's a continuum between introversion and extraversion
It's possible to be extremely introverted, preferring no explicit social interactions, while still getting a noticable peace and energy uplift from being able to just watch and be surrounded by other people doing their things.
Think of someone quiet in a coffee shop or library who never talks to anyone, but likes being there, not for the coffee or the books, but for the ambience.
Re: Introverts didn't 'win' lockdown
#160Earlier quoted context omitted.
Introversion has nothing to do with social skills or confidence. Being an introvert is not the same as being shy or awkward. Introversion is a measure of what effect socializing has on you, and how comfortable you are being alone. Extroverts dislike being alone, Introverts like it. Extroverts feel energized by social interaction, Introverts feel drained by it. That's it. I'm tired of these ignorant "Introverts are ju…
Here's the thing. I used to be an extreme introvert by all standards, and preferred being alone. Social interaction was extremely tiring. Now I'm comfortable both with people and alone. However, the real question is why it was tiring. It was tiring because I wasn't comfortable, it wasn't second nature. It took extra effort, just like all other the things we do that we aren't good at doing. When it eventually became e…