Cheating in FPS by using a second computer to move mouse • Hacker News Board

Re: Cheating in FPS by using a second computer to move mouse

#121

Post by quickthrowman » Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 3:11 PM UTC

tharkun__ wrote: post #115

mrslave wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you said about progression matches my personal experience. I jumped in the deep end of Q3 just before Quake Live came out with about 2-3 months of playing every evening for hours (vacation/between contracts -- I can't recall). I started saying, "Woah, this guy is so good he has to be a bot!" to the best player one evening early in my journey, after he fragged me for the 10th time in a row with nary a scratch fro…

With you on progression. First time you see someone being super fast you call them a cheater. Then you learn about Strafe jumping and that it's just how q3 physics work (even if unintentional from the programmers perhaps) and you learn it suddenly you're called a cheater by n00bs. Same with jumping onto things of a certain height. If your graphics hardware could not do a certain framerate constantly it was impossible…

> Having played q3 back when myself it was standard though to make _all_ skins be the standard blue skin.

This must’ve been early on in q3’s life, ‘keel/fb’ (bright green Keel) has been the preferred enemymodel for quite some time since it’s highly visible, has loud movement sounds, and fills out the hit box pretty well. I always assume my opponent forces fullbright Keel for my model too.

Re: Cheating in FPS by using a second computer to move mouse

#122

Post by jon-wood » Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 3:42 PM UTC

kilburn wrote: post #30

denimnerd42 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's currently impossible to detect. I think it would be possible to detect if you used some kind of player profile where you characterized how a player moved and then were able to determine through a replay whether the profiles matched. However then you could program the cheat AI to mimic the real player etc, etc. But this would take several evolutions where each tech would be ahead of the other.

I think you are spot on: statistical player profiling + controlled environment testing is the good and potentially permanent solution to this problem. In my vision every game creates a model of your behavior/capabilities (server-side). For example, in a fps game it could consider your reaction times, overshoot distance on quick movements, look-around frequency, movement patterns, etc.. When you reach certain level yo…

If there’s one thing that would make me even less likely to play multiplayer it would be a requirement to travel to a (potentially distant) location in order to take an exam before being allowed to progress.

Re: Cheating in FPS by using a second computer to move mouse

#123

Post by cmeacham98 » Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 4:14 PM UTC

rangewookie wrote: post #51

ALittleLight wrote: post #19

I wonder if the anti-cheat system could insert ghost enemies for a few frames, or about 20-30ms, fast enough that humans wouldn't really notice. If players are shooting too often at ghosts, that may be a good reason to ban.

20-30ms would be noticeable to a trained eye. Speedrunners often hit buttons frame perfect during a 1/30th or 1/60th second window. Many people today are playing on 120-240hz monitors. Additionally, if you're training on gameplay from X game and that game has theoretical ghost frames that the player doesn't see / shoot at, then the hack shouldn't shoot at it either. It's a bit of a chicken an egg problem.

Speedrunners do that via timing, not reaction. The fastest possible human reaction time with any level of consistency is somewhere around 100-120 ms, so if you reacted to 'ghost enemies' faster than that you would be definitely cheating.

Re: Cheating in FPS by using a second computer to move mouse

#124

Post by void_mint » Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 4:19 PM UTC

skinnymuch wrote: post #103

jacobmischka wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The people using steroids are equally as skilled as their opponents. Sure, because they were also doping. Seriously though, I wouldn't say steroids make you _more skilled_, but they absolutely give a physical advantage over natural athletes. Which is why there aren't any top level natural athletes anymore except in very dedicated natural-only circles.

If my genetics aren’t as good as another athlete. I’m at a disadvantage. Why is this considered not just acceptable but even good? The genetically gifted person didn’t do anything to receive praise society gives out for said genetics.

Because having good genetics isn't enough to actually achieve anything, and there are a myriad of reasons someone with excellent genetics won't achieve as much as someone with lesser genetics.

Re: Cheating in FPS by using a second computer to move mouse

#125

Post by MacroChip » Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 4:35 PM UTC

bruce343434 wrote: post #86

MacroChip wrote: post #85

Does anyone know why Intel FOGS did not get popular? https://web.archive.org/web/20070707090927/http://www.techno... Hardware signing input device inputs would advance the cat and mouse game by a lot. Then you'd need something physically moving the input device for you to aimbot. Or pay someone to properly crack open the secure enclave on your input device.

Just make a "usb mouse" which is actually a programmable arduino? What makes an aimbot possible is that something can read the game's state and turn it into a mousemove signal. It can then feed it into the arduino instead of directly moving the mouse. The problem is preventing game state from being read. Part of this can be done by detecting DLL injections. Sadly you will always be able to write a monitor that runs a…

Any fake USB mouse that someone makes would not have the Intel Secure Enclave that signs mouse movements. So the mouse inputs would be rejected by the server/banned.

Re: Cheating in FPS by using a second computer to move mouse

#126

Post by void_mint » Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 4:40 PM UTC

rcxdude wrote: post #75

void_mint wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cheating in video games is nothing like steroids. The people using steroids are equally as skilled as their opponents. Steroids aren't magic and don't miraculously give the user abilities they didn't have prior. Both Ben Johnson and Carl Lewis were on steroids, fwiw. "True winner" is a joke.

People with a lot of skill in video games also cheat, BTW. They're not all zero skill relying on the hacks to compete at all.

Kinda depends. It's quite rare in modern FPS games to cheat and also be competitive in legitimate pro tournaments. Cheating online in ladder isn't really the same.

Re: Cheating in FPS by using a second computer to move mouse

#127

Post by blindmute » Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 4:45 PM UTC

jiggawatts wrote: post #83

stanford_labrat wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is demand for this sort of work in the League of Legends space. Could be of interest for you!

I don't fraternise with those filthy LoL players! /s On a more serious note, I'm sure something like this exists already. I wasn't even the first one to write a Dota picker, I got the idea from someone else's tool. I even saw one that could analyse the display and recognise the hero images to enter the existing picks automatically! Even my little utility merely scratched the surface. It didn't handle the first few pi…

As far as I know nothing like this exists for league because league doesn't have an open games database. You can query for a specific user's games, but only if you know their ID, and in only small batches. Would be cool though

Re: Cheating in FPS by using a second computer to move mouse

#128

Post by amirmaleki » Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 4:47 PM UTC

Isn't it horrifying to think that it can also be done in the real battlefield as well?

Re: Cheating in FPS by using a second computer to move mouse

#129

Post by blindmute » Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 4:57 PM UTC

mavhc wrote: post #69

If a game can be easily played by a computer maybe it's time to start playing a more complicated game, worthy of your human brain

Name one game that a human is better at than a trained NN. Starcraft 2, chess, go, Dota 2, have all been shown that AI wins. If a game is digital, AI will win after sufficient modeling. I don't think any of that negates the merit of the games themselves for human play.

Re: Cheating in FPS by using a second computer to move mouse

#130

Post by b0rsuk » Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 6:56 PM UTC

jon-wood wrote: post #122

kilburn wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are spot on: statistical player profiling + controlled environment testing is the good and potentially permanent solution to this problem. In my vision every game creates a model of your behavior/capabilities (server-side). For example, in a fps game it could consider your reaction times, overshoot distance on quick movements, look-around frequency, movement patterns, etc.. When you reach certain level yo…

If there’s one thing that would make me even less likely to play multiplayer it would be a requirement to travel to a (potentially distant) location in order to take an exam before being allowed to progress.

We already have sports and board games for that.