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Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

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Re: Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could just mean "the CIA's record, specifically". There's plenty there.

Claiming that things are their historical record leads to fighting the last war and not the next one.

Oh, for christ's sake, it's been like 75 years if you include the OSS.

They're the department with an image of white-collar intelligence collection and a huge sideline in dirty fighting to maintain American hegemony. That's who they are, have been and who they will be.

Re: Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

#242
post #188

Can anyone explain how this is not a breach of employment law? It reads like an on-the-face-of-it constructive dismissal case: if your manager has future intent to sack you, has no intention of helping you improve, is kpi rewarded for sacking you for reasons which don't actually relate to your performance and doesn't inform you of your status, surely it's premeditated? I don't understand how H/R and legal can sustain…

In the US, the burden of proof in constructive dismissal cases lies with the employee. How are you going to prove that you were placed on a secretive PIP list without your knowledge?

That's just so wrong. It suggests to me the 10% kill list can't be done in Europe or Australia for instance, unfair dismissal law would (I honestly believe) empower asking for the list in the court action. Given this list is known to exist the presumption of evidence is really strong and lying or hiding the list would be a serious offence.

Re: Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

#243
post #13

I never understood the secretive nature of these Amazon "devplan" / "FOCUS" lists. If an employee has a performance issue, they should know. Period. If they are on a formal list, they should know that too. The only "positive" here is that it can affect the individual's moral to know you are not meeting expectations - but that has to be communicated regardless. If it's understood it has to be communicated and there is…

I have spent a lot of time on Blind where this is discussed often and I think I have an idea what is going on. At a high level, Amazon orgs have Unregretted Attrition (URA) targets/quotas for orgs. Not every manager needs to hit the exact target but under a certain level of middle management they do. Because of this built-in churn they need to have a pipeline of low performers - because once the current set of URA ta…

Your reasoning is right on point!

Its just ironic that Amazon decided to include "Strive to be Earth's Best Employer" in their (in)famous leadership principles recently.

>Strive to be Earth's Best Employer

>Leaders work every day to create a safer, more productive, higher performing, more diverse, and more just work environment. They lead with empathy, have fun at work, and make it easy for others to have fun. Leaders ask themselves: Are my fellow employees growing? Are they empowered? Are they ready for what's next? Leaders have a vision for and commitment to their employees' personal success, whether that be at Amazon or elsewhere.

https://www.amazon.jobs/en/principles

Re: Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

#244

Amazon is a strange company. After having spent 4 years there I am convinced that they hate their employees. They want you to burnout. Just look at the stock vesting schedule, its 5, 15, 40, 40. First two years you barely get any stock, and I believe the average time someone stays at amazon is around 1.5 years (I don't have latest data so maybe this is wrong) On top of that, you have the pathetic 401k match (50% upto…

Wow, that 401k match is pathetically low. I'm surprised more number-crunching types don't put an employee group together to advocate for improvement.

Re: Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

#245
post #214
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see how some small aspects of this policy could make sense objectively. Having a URA target + needing a pipeline to feed that at scale certainly makes sense - notwithstanding the proven misguided approach of having a URA target to begin with. But taken as a whole I cannot help but conclude that the program is meant to instil a culture of fear (and by extension toxicity). Considering the following: * A manager m…

Easy solution: apply the same process to management and C-level.

C-level executives consider themselves too important to be subject to this level of pressure and toxicity.

Re: Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

#246

Amazon is a strange company. After having spent 4 years there I am convinced that they hate their employees. They want you to burnout. Just look at the stock vesting schedule, its 5, 15, 40, 40. First two years you barely get any stock, and I believe the average time someone stays at amazon is around 1.5 years (I don't have latest data so maybe this is wrong) On top of that, you have the pathetic 401k match (50% upto…

> Speaking of rewards, if the company stock grows (which it has for the past several years), and because of this growth you stand to make more than your Amazon decided Target Compensation, then you won't get any base salary increase even if you were the best employee Amazon has ever seen.

In my experience, this is justification used by many big tech companies. I have worked at a couple now that couched 1% raises with the script about stock gains and, my, look at your RSUs! Don't tell anyone, but you actually have more RSUs than most people at your level. Wink. Just because you didn't get a big raise doesn't mean we don't value you, and it doesn't mean the company is doing poorly either! Everything is great. And look at that, yeah, it's about time for my next one on one. KEep up the good work!

Re: Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

#247

Amazon is a strange company. After having spent 4 years there I am convinced that they hate their employees. They want you to burnout. Just look at the stock vesting schedule, its 5, 15, 40, 40. First two years you barely get any stock, and I believe the average time someone stays at amazon is around 1.5 years (I don't have latest data so maybe this is wrong) On top of that, you have the pathetic 401k match (50% upto…

Wow, that 401k match is pathetically low. I'm surprised more number-crunching types don't put an employee group together to advocate for improvement.

>I'm surprised more number-crunching types don't put an employee group together to advocate for improvement.

A union? At Amazon?

Re: Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

#248
post #24

Most successful companies I know are constantly recruiting and trying to keep people onboard - why would they be trying to actively get rid of people?

>why would they be trying to actively get rid of people? It's extremely demoralizing to work with people who are bad at their job. It makes me feel as though my hard work is unappreciated, because someone who is not working hard gets the same treatment. Sometimes the employee is slacking off, sometimes they are bad at their job. Either way, if their failure to contribute is bringing the rest of the team down, they ha…

That would be true. However, the word excellence, especially in IT companies is a relative term at best. We have seen others in this forum refer to Amazon's work as fixing broken code that's hardly maintainable. Hardly what one would call 'excellence' particularly given how exalted a position Amazon occupies as a desirable employer.

You could have a bunch of OOPs-fanatics who will hate the functional programmer who does things differently. Toxic culture (lack of self-awareness means that 99% of people don't know they are participating/creating/perpetuating the toxicity) means this functional programmer is demoralizing the team.

That's how objective IT is. Its culture wars of this sort - misplaced fanatic sincerity and close-mindedness, or worse mean-ness. And its demoralizing to the majority. Hence the PIP. Its like a dystopian landscape.

Re: Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a plan, and the manager will hold employees to it, the difference is they aren't proactively saying "if you don't complete these steps, you can see yourself out." At that point the manager has usually already, for better or worse, flipped the "bozo bit" on the employee and is very unlikely to attribute any successes and instead over-index on the failures. The vast majority of employees put on a PIP do not su…

Targets the employee doesn't know about aren't a plan. The low probability of reversing the bozo bit is why the employee should know when the manager flipped it.

A PIP doesn't have targets the employee doesn't know about - not formally, anyways. The targets are the same whether you're on a PIP or not: meeting expectations for your level. At a company like Amazon these are going to be well defined and published. The manager would have also more than likely, if acting in good faith, found you a mentor by this point. If they weren't acting in good faith, then it doesn't matter whether you know about your PIP or not, meet your expectations or not, you're cooked.

But yes, I agree, you should pull the ripcord as soon as you get a good sense of what's going on.

Re: Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

#250

There are many types of PIPs, and Amazon seems to be trying a new flavor. This one seems to be about managers focusing (hence the name) on floundering employees, giving them the attention they need to get back ok track. And maybe telling the employee "you're getting extra attention" could make them pessimistic and less able to be improved. It's a good theory, anyway. We'll see if it works out. Of course the other, da…

Re. the darker possibility becomes the bias, since the organization (maybe due to its size), with its focus on success, has a low tolerance for an employee who is struggling.
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