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Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

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Re: Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

#161
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn’t want to work at a place like Netflix that doesn’t comp with equity, especially after a year like 2020. A 500k TC could easily be 800k+ now, if that’s cash it’s still 500k and worth less due to inflation. If the stock significantly depreciates there will be layoffs anyway.

Beauty of cash is that you can do whatever you want with it. For example, buy Netflix shares. Or buy Alphabet shares. Maybe Apple. That way you can both benefit from upside and somewhat protect from downside of your own employer's shares tanking all the while you're getting laid off (as you're suggesting).

[deleted]

Re: Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

#162
post #5

Another goodie from AMZN - hard cap on max of years of experience for a position. Nice way to filter out the old dudes like me. I suppose the trend will naturally spread through the industry. Edit: it is max cap in hiring requirements. The requirements are directly from AMZN recruiter (AMZN email address, etc). The max is bullet pointed together with the min. The max is also additionally clearly stressed in the descr…

Disclaimer work at Amazon.

Do you mind expanding on this a little bit on what position you were applying for?

I think it's perfectly reasonable if someone has 15 years of experience and being rejecting for an SDE I position. It's an absolutely fair question to ask why you aren't at an SDE II level already, or applying for that role with that amount of experience.

Similarly it makes sense to reject people who have years of experience but are applying for internships.

Although I doubt that's your specific case...

I'd be very surprised and extremely skeptical we have year caps on senior roles like SDE3/Principal

Re: Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

#163
post #147
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of that impact is making the CIA more effective at the things the CIA does, as Amazon runs a special datacenter for them on-prem at Langley. It is quite sad how many in our industry are either sufficiently clueless or sufficiently indifferent that they would eagerly go work at the CIA's sysadmins, especially under the guise of "important" or "impact" (quite literally in the case I mentioned).

I would be proud to go work directly for the CIA, but I’m too selfish to do so, because the pay would be worse than what I’m doing now. Not all Americans loath their country and the institutions that help maintain it - imperfect though they may be.

I mean, that's a pretty shitty view considering how many lives the CIA has ruined. How many generations they've burned. How much unnecessary suffering they've caused.

But, I mean, if the thought of people suffering brings you calm at night - go for it!

You know you're a shitty org when you have a whole wikipedia page dedicated to you being shitty: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_CIA_controversies

Re: Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

#164
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn’t the complete picture. It’s true that the vesting schedule gives you only 5% of RSUs in your first year, but employees’ cash signing bonus is increased to offset that. So if the total compensation target for a role is generally $500k (say, a principal engineer or a director, maybe?) and your salary is capped at $160k, you’d be given a signing bonus of $500k-$160k-(total stock vest x 5%) in cash. It’s not as…

Cash bonus is taxed at a much higher rate, isn't it?

No it’s just income on your w2 same as rsus and salary. You’re thinking of long term cap gains which is entirely different matter

Re: Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

#165
post #24

Most successful companies I know are constantly recruiting and trying to keep people onboard - why would they be trying to actively get rid of people?

>why would they be trying to actively get rid of people? It's extremely demoralizing to work with people who are bad at their job. It makes me feel as though my hard work is unappreciated, because someone who is not working hard gets the same treatment. Sometimes the employee is slacking off, sometimes they are bad at their job. Either way, if their failure to contribute is bringing the rest of the team down, they ha…

So many companies I deal with have extremely poor management teams and practices. Things like stack-ranking, vague job descriptions/responsibilities, managers who aren't technical, the list is endemic to IT.

You want demoralizing? How about being an excellent employee, but being told that you can only get a COLA raise because your manager has been told only 2 out of a team of 15 can "exceed standards?" And these standards are as vague as HR can possibly make them.

So unless you're sociopathic, you try to "improve" which generally means kissing up to your boss. Doing a better job revolves around keeping your boss happy, regardless of whether that means your real work is being done at an "exceeds" level. Find out what metrics he considers important, and focus almost exclusively on them.

If you're sociopathic, you do this, while sabotaging your coworkers. It's pretty easy to do; keep important information away from them, point out any flaws/mistakes they make, etc.

Any large organization will end up like this if they follow traditional HR guidelines for performance evals. It's part of a competitive environment.

The only place I've seen it work better/differently was when the entire team was evaluated. That helped prevent the Machiavellian sabotage, but did allow lower performers to benefit from the work of the higher performers. But that would happen anyway; you can't fire everyone. And the motivation of the coworkers shifts from competitive to cooperative. Helping others learn new things, overcome issues, etc. When management gets behind this, it's amazing, but most managers and executives are discouraged from trying new things.

Re: Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

#166

> “Should I tell an employee that I entered them into Focus?” the question reads. The response: “Do not discuss Focus with employees. Instead, tell the employee that their performance is not meeting expectations, the specific areas where they need to improve, and offer feedback and support to help them improve.” The headline is editorialized. IMO whether you’re told you’re in Focus or not is irrelevant. If your manag…

"I am totally unappreciated in my time. You can run this whole park from this room with minimal staff for up to 3 days. You think that kind of automation is easy? Or cheap? You know anybody who can network 8 connection machines and debug 2 million lines of code for what I bid for this job? Because if he can I'd like to see him try."

"Eh-eh-aaaah! ... Eh-eh-aaaah!"

Re: Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other Big-N companies have comparable pay with way less stress.

What I see being touted is F & N > G > A & A for TC? Obviously there are many factors in play so that might not always be the case. Also per my other comment on this thread, sounds like Netflix really blows away all others because there is no shenanigans around RSUs, cliffs, unexpected appreciation, etc.? Correct me if I'm wrong since I am definitely no expert at this game.

This is probably true, but socially Apple seems like it gets a better reception/superior people. Folks at Amazon are pretty normal.

Disclaimer - I’m very average and work at Amazon

Re: Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

#168
post #162
post #5

Another goodie from AMZN - hard cap on max of years of experience for a position. Nice way to filter out the old dudes like me. I suppose the trend will naturally spread through the industry. Edit: it is max cap in hiring requirements. The requirements are directly from AMZN recruiter (AMZN email address, etc). The max is bullet pointed together with the min. The max is also additionally clearly stressed in the descr…

Disclaimer work at Amazon. Do you mind expanding on this a little bit on what position you were applying for? I think it's perfectly reasonable if someone has 15 years of experience and being rejecting for an SDE I position. It's an absolutely fair question to ask why you aren't at an SDE II level already, or applying for that role with that amount of experience. Similarly it makes sense to reject people who have yea…

it was an unsolicited email from AMZN recruiter on what seems to be SDE3/4 judging by the requirements.

>I think it's perfectly reasonable if someone has 15 years of experience and being rejecting for an SDE I position. It's an absolutely fair question to ask why you aren't at an SDE II level already, or applying for that role with that amount of experience.

it is absolutely reasonable to ask and reject if unsatisfied with the answer. I think it is discriminatory to bar from applying (or reject automatically) based on such years based cap.

>Similarly it makes sense to reject people who have years of experience but are applying for internships.

again, i think such automatic rejection is discriminatory.

Re: Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LOL My manager used to discuss my promotion doc with me, and talk about who we can approach for promotion feedback. I found out about 'focus' or my 'performance issues' when I resigned from Amazon.

Does it ever happen that the manager puts someone on 'Focus,' their performance improves, and then the manager forgets to take them off of it?

A number of key engineers who I loved working with left my team around the same time, and their departure made me uninterested in continuing on that team any longer. I applied internally to a few other teams, and found out a couple weeks into that process that I was on the devlist when the manager of the team I wanted to join suddenly said he couldn't take me.

Through some backchanneling with a manager I had been friends with before he joined Amazon, I found out I had been placed on the devlist the same week my friends left the team. No performance issues were ever discussed with me, and at that point in my career I'm very confident I didn't have any. I am pretty sure management of my team guessed (correctly) that I would try to leave once my friends were gone, and worried the entire team would implode with additional departures, and all institutional knowledge of a shitty old perl/mason/codigo codebase that needed to be maintained would implode with it. So I am pretty sure they placed me on the devlist purely as a mechanism to make it difficult for me to leave (I would have needed to get the director / L8 level manager of the team I was attempting to join to override the devlist block. this pretty much never happens unless you have a relationship with that person, and I didn't).

I was never able to get a manager in my org to have an open conversation with me about that, despite lots of effort. Lots of hemming and hawing and a few canceled meetings. I was eventually told I was taken off the devlist, but when I again tried to transfer a year later, found out I was still on it. I'm not sure if it was a case of "forgot to take you off" or "lied" and will never know, but that happened to me circa ~2018.

Edit: Unrelated to your question, but I also suspect having been on one of those lists once and escaped makes you a target to get put on again. No manager backchanneling confirmed that for me, it's just an educated guess. My performance suffered for a couple months at the start of the pandemic for obvious reasons, and I was placed on the devlist again (now called "Focus") around late April / early May 2020. I was never told this, nobody ever said the word "Focus", nor was I given any performance coaching. I was only able to infer it because my manager told me "I don't think you should try to change teams right now", and at that point in my Amazon career I knew what that really meant. I started job hunting immediately, kicked my feet up for a while, and took the severance the moment I was finally pip'd. Worked out extremely well for me actually, but a less experienced employee who might not connect the dots between "don't try to change teams ;)" and "your performance is considered below the bar" would have been blindsided.

Re: Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, those poor AWS employees sure have it tough vs that warehouse division.

> Yes, those poor AWS employees sure have it tough vs that warehouse division. Pointing out that someone has it shittier is typically an excuse for shittyness.

Or in some cases letting said shittiness manifest because the person doing the pointing isn't themselves subject to it and/or could stand to lose ground when someone decides to do something about it.
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