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Juul bought an entire issue of a scholarly journal

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Re: Juul bought an entire issue of a scholarly journal

#351

Post by mcguire »

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #239
Red_Leaves_Flyy wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here’s a good primer. I was a bit off, it’s not millions per sku, more like hundreds of thousands, but all the combinations of products also need to be accounted for and approved at great cost. https://vaping360.com/vape-news/105656/how-will-the-pmta-dea... If that’s not enough detail let me know, I’m happy to dig up other old articles for you. This small business destroying charade by the fda has been well documente…

> fear mongering about children juuling. Why is that fear-mongering? My anecdotal evidence is that it's rampant with teens. Do you have any stats that are not anecdotal so I can educate myself?

Do you have any (non-anecotal, ideally) evidence that it's dangerous?

Re: Juul bought an entire issue of a scholarly journal

#352

Post by w0de0 »

petercooper wrote: post #259

Before I start I note that I'm old enough to do what I want and I have no other habits/vices, but don't vape, kids ;-) So I, a total non-smoker, started experimenting with nicotine a few weeks ago. First I tried gum which did nothing but give me an itchy throat. Then I bought a vaping device and some juices. Why? I think I'm low in dopamine (I am not depressed, though) and had read nicotine provides a temporary boost…

As a nicotine addict I caution you against assuming addiction is not looming. In my experience the onset of nicotine addiction is sudden and consuming.

For some time, perhaps, you smoke or vape merely socially, experimentally, after a whisky at a party. Then, suddenly, perhaps after one too many the night before, ferocious withdrawal threatens. It is not a slow process, but a sudden toggle.

Re: Juul bought an entire issue of a scholarly journal

#353

Post by w0de0 »

w0de0 wrote: post #352
petercooper wrote: post #259

Before I start I note that I'm old enough to do what I want and I have no other habits/vices, but don't vape, kids ;-) So I, a total non-smoker, started experimenting with nicotine a few weeks ago. First I tried gum which did nothing but give me an itchy throat. Then I bought a vaping device and some juices. Why? I think I'm low in dopamine (I am not depressed, though) and had read nicotine provides a temporary boost…

As a nicotine addict I caution you against assuming addiction is not looming. In my experience the onset of nicotine addiction is sudden and consuming. For some time, perhaps, you smoke or vape merely socially, experimentally, after a whisky at a party. Then, suddenly, perhaps after one too many the night before, ferocious withdrawal threatens. It is not a slow process, but a sudden toggle.

I will also add that in my experience a nicotine high only exists when consuming a large amount before you have developed a tolerance. I believe most addicts do not get real pleasure, either.

Re: Juul bought an entire issue of a scholarly journal

#354

Post by stjohnswarts »

Aldipower wrote: post #132

I quit to smoke after 13 years of smoking. And I was a heavy smoker. I am a non-smoker for 10y now and will never smoke again. No need for vaping or such. I think if you substitute you do not catch your addiction at the root. Vaping is really the wrong way. You need to get rid of the addiction. My main point why it was easy for me to quit finally, I hated to be controlled by an chemical. A chemical that has control o…

n=1 is only a new data point. If vaping helps someone else then I'm all for it, if they can sub it out for smoking, it really does seem to be a better option if people don't use cheap ingredients and companies.

Re: Juul bought an entire issue of a scholarly journal

#355

Post by gundmc »

plank_time wrote: post #197

We spent decades trying to get rid of cigarettes and it worked and now we let this fucking Juul through the front door. It’s as if we haven’t learned a fucking thing in decades, and the fact that this founder is celebrated in Silicon Valley sickens me. He just found another opportunity to hook kids on nicotine for another few generations and now he’s a fucking billionaire. Fuck that guy.

I haven't seen Juul or its founder "celebrated" to any great extent in Silicon Valley. Is this a common sentiment?

Re: Juul bought an entire issue of a scholarly journal

#356

Post by mcguire »

bmj wrote: post #333
prepend wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not the addiction that causes lung cancer, it’s the smoke. So the goal of stopping smoking should have positive health outcomes.

My understanding is that the proverbial jury is still out on whether vaping truly is less harmful to the lungs that smoking[0][1]. That would mean that vaping (instead of smoking) isn't necessarily a positive health outcome. [0] https://newsinhealth.nih.gov/2020/05/risks-vaping [1] https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-preventi...

[0]: "Studies suggest nicotine vaping may be less harmful than traditional cigarettes when people who regularly smoke switch to them as a complete replacement."

[1]: "Vaping Is Less Harmful Than Smoking, but It’s Still Not Safe"

[1] has some problems. It seems to be conflating the vitamin E acetate issue with vaping in general. ("However, there has also been an outbreak of lung injuries and deaths associated with vaping. As of Jan. 21, 2020, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) confirmed 60 deaths in patients with e-cigarette, or vaping, product use associated lung injury (EVALI).") The section on "Research Suggests Vaping Is Bad for Your Heart and Lungs" focuses on nicotine. Which raises your blood pressure. And not much else, according to other sources.

Re: Juul bought an entire issue of a scholarly journal

#357

Post by mcguire »

leereeves wrote: post #170
smeej wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Related: Why is there talk about banning Juul from selling its products in the U.S. entirely, but no such conversation about banning any of the big tobacco companies from selling theirs? It's all about power. There are so many things it would be useful to quantify and compare: Does anybody know the difference between the percentage of non-nicotine users who begin smoking cigarettes and the percentage who begin vaping…

> Related: Why is there talk about banning Juul from selling its products in the U.S. entirely Important distinction: I didn't say anything about banning sales , just marketing, which we've already done for both smoking and alcohol. > How much more dangerous is nicotine than alcohol? According to the CDC, "cigarette smoking is the leading cause of preventable death in the United States...causes more than 480,000 deat…

That last article says, "The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) suspects that exposure to THC, as well as a mix of THC, nicotine and vitamin E, an additive in many vape carriages, is causing serious lung injury."

Would you agree that exposure to THC, in itself, causes serious lung injury?

(Yes, I know, vitamin E acetate (an oil) in cannabis vaping products was likely the cause of a number of cases of lung injury.)

Also, "An FDA analysis of e-cigarettes from two leading brands found that the samples contained carcinogens and other hazardous chemicals, including diethylene glycol, which is found in antifreeze." Diethylene glycol is also used as "a humectant for tobacco, cork, printing ink, and glue. It is also a component in brake fluid, lubricants, wallpaper strippers, artificial fog and haze solutions, and heating/cooking fuel" as well as an industrial solvent. This statement is largely meaningless unless you know how much is in there: "The U.S. Code of Federal Regulations allows no more than 0.2% of diethylene glycol in polyethylene glycol when the latter is used as a food additive. The Australian government does not allow DEG as a food additive; it is only allowed at less than 0.25% w/w of DEG as an impurity of polyethylene glycol (PEG) even in toothpaste." (Wikipedia)

Re: Juul bought an entire issue of a scholarly journal

#358

Post by mcguire »

Judgmentality wrote: post #99
replicatorblog wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ecigs are likely one of the most impactful public health interventions of the last 50 years. They provide a substitute that is less dangerous and pleasurable which keeps compliance high. Juul and their competitors were genius product managers paired with irresponsible to the point of malevolent product marketers. I would like someone to do a "Years of life saved" calculation that tallies the expected years save by sw…

> I would like someone to do a "Years of life saved" calculation that tallies the expected years save by switching smokers to vaping balanced against those who were attracted by vaping who eventually went to smoking. My guess is even with the new entrants the years of life saved would be extraordinary. My understanding is entire high schools are getting addicted to vaping, where before smoking was a relatively minor…

"My understanding is entire high schools are getting addicted to vaping, where before smoking was a relatively minor phenomenon. I suspect vaping is causing multiple times as much harm as it is providing relief, especially since they target young people for new customers."

I think I'd want a citation for that. It's been a long time since I was in high school, but smoking was incredibly common (if reasonably well concealed) back then. I can see vaping as being somewhat more popular (if not "entire high schools"), but...

Re: Juul bought an entire issue of a scholarly journal

#359

Post by mcguire »

Judgmentality wrote: post #215
lolc wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what's the harm of vaping? As far as I know, there is some evidence of harm, but it compares very favorably to smoking. It's a different class. To talk about "years of life lost" is quite off from what I know about it. And I never vaped, just smoked.

We don't have as much data on vaping as we do for smoking, but this reminds me of what cigarette companies said for decades: "where is the data showing our products are harmful?" We already know vaping causes popcorn lung. I suspect 1:1 between vaping and smoking that vaping is safer, but who knows? We won't know until we have decades of data about mortality related to vaping. It seems plausible that it increases lun…

"We already know vaping causes popcorn lung."

We know that vaping fluid with a particular flavoring chemical caused popcorn lung. That chemical is now rare.

"The chemical that gave this condition its nickname is diacetyl. After workers at a factory that packaged microwave popcorn were found to have bronchiolitis obliterans more often than other people, some companies stopped using diacetyl as a flavoring. But it's still used in some electronic cigarette flavors in the US. Many e-cigarette makers state they aren't using this chemical in their products and its use in e-cigarettes is banned in Europe." (https://www.webmd.com/lung/popcorn-lung#1)

Re: Juul bought an entire issue of a scholarly journal

#360

Post by ReGenGen »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #113
afavour wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think if Juul was marketed as a smoking cessation product I’d have no problem with it. But it’s marketed as a lifestyle product and a ton of young people with no history of smoking have started vaping as a result.

But it's not a smoking cessation product. It can be used effectively as such, but it's first and foremost a healthier substitute to smoking. People like to go to both extremes wrt. vaping - "but it creates new addicts" vs. "but it's effective tool for breaking addiction", forgetting about the biggest benefit vaping brings: letting smokers who don't want to quit to keep smoking, without risking lung cancer. I'm defini…

Its easy to forget that heart-disease kills as many smokers as Cancer. Vaping is still ingesting mystery compounds & heavy metals directly into the blood stream for the body's immune system to freak out on. https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/heal... https://www.jhsph.edu/news/news-releases/2018/study-lead-and...
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