EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax • Hacker News Board

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#211

Post by londons_explore » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 9:07 PM UTC

I can see a reason to exempt flights that are flying abroad.

For example, an EU airport could charge max(min(10%, tax rate of country you came from last), tax rate of country you're flying to next).

Thats to prevent an aircraft just filling up where it's cheap and carrying that fuel around the world unnecessarily.

The EU should then lobby other countries to introduce fuel taxes, and if they refuse, set fees for aircraft coming from those countries into the EU which is approximately equal to the taxes due on the fuel for those flights.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#212

Post by londons_explore » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 9:11 PM UTC

_rpd wrote: post #203

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK does (including back in the good old days when we were still in the EU).

This doesn't appear to be the case (as of Oct 2019) ... > members of the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO), including the United Kingdom, are prevented from taxing international aviation fuel, or any proxies for fuel, under the Chicago Convention. https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN00...

I think it might be time for an ~80 year old convention to be revamped if it kills the environment...

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#213

Post by throwaway894345 » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 9:13 PM UTC

mbesto wrote: post #170

throwaway894345 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Private jets are completely irrelevant to global warming because there are not enough of them. They probably are irrelevant, so why exempt them? > actually curbing global warming will require huge changes in the lifestyle of the global middle class. Not just the super-rich. I'm of the impression that "middle class lifestyle" itself isn't a big contributor to global warming but rather the manufacture and supply chai…

> itself isn't a big contributor to global warming but rather the manufacture and supply chains. Manufacture and supply chains (and services for that matter) that provide to the middle class. At least that's my interpretation of the parent's point.

Right, and my point is that the middleclass lifestyle doesn't care whether those industries/supply-chains are fueled by solar or fossil fuel.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#214

Post by londons_explore » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 9:16 PM UTC

tpmx wrote: post #100

dharmab wrote: post #11

A relevant video examining the potential alternatives to jet fuel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_BK7PRugK4 A TL;DW is that biofuels are unscalable and worse for the environment than standard fuels. Hydrogen is not yet viable, and would require entirely new aircraft designs. Electricity will likely never be viable for all but the smallest low-range aircraft. E-fuels (fuel made using carbon capture) is not yet viab…

Since it's a 25 minute video (ugh): what's the tl;dw for why biofuels are unscalable and worse for the environment?

Most of the worlds farmland is used to feed the worlds population and farm animals.

The worlds use of fuel is many times greater in terms of calories than use of food.

That means if we want to use farmland to grow fuel, we're going to need a lot more farmland. We already farm most of the land that's viable for farming. So there isn't really much more available without destroying a lot of ecosystems and chopping down rainforest...

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#215

Post by unethical_ban » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 9:29 PM UTC

throwaway3neu94 wrote: post #112

unethical_ban wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand people who think that, at hundreds or thousands of municipal and state levels, political leaders were secretly in meetings with robes nodding excitedly over the opportunity to oppress the masses. Or that an unknown, highly contagious respiratory disease causing hospitals to overflow with no vaccine available didn't warrant some kind of mandates against public interactions. It boggles my mind what k…

The governor of California was photographed holding a fundraising dinner during a phase of lockdown he put in effect. It'd be hard to come up with a more obvious scenario.

Correct. That was wrong of him to do. However, do you think that because of that, it is impossible for the directive to limit public events was completely without justification or public health benefit? Could it be that he was a wanker, and it was a good decision?

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#216

Post by 988747 » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 9:30 PM UTC

unethical_ban wrote: post #89

ArkanExplorer wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its been the same with lockdown. Enforce totalitarian restrictions and tracking on the plebes, whilst the rich and connected routinely ignore or are excluded from the rules. Its possible that Lockdown is a ploy to distract from the trillions of dollars of money printing that has gone on during the pandemic, to suppress the inflation generated, as well as to normalise location and biological data collection and arbitr…

I don't understand people who think that, at hundreds or thousands of municipal and state levels, political leaders were secretly in meetings with robes nodding excitedly over the opportunity to oppress the masses. Or that an unknown, highly contagious respiratory disease causing hospitals to overflow with no vaccine available didn't warrant some kind of mandates against public interactions. It boggles my mind what k…

I disagree with GP's conspiracy theory, but still I can see how it could be theoretically possible. Those "hundreds or thousands of municipal and state levels, political leaders" they are not necessarily a part of real elite. Instead, they are brainwashed during their college years to think what they masters need them to think. And then, when the actual pandemic happens they simply do not have enough critical thinking skills to reject the official narrative. Also, it is safer for their political careers to just go with the flow.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#217

Post by tpmx » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 9:33 PM UTC

londons_explore wrote: post #214

tpmx wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since it's a 25 minute video (ugh): what's the tl;dw for why biofuels are unscalable and worse for the environment?

Most of the worlds farmland is used to feed the worlds population and farm animals. The worlds use of fuel is many times greater in terms of calories than use of food. That means if we want to use farmland to grow fuel, we're going to need a lot more farmland. We already farm most of the land that's viable for farming. So there isn't really much more available without destroying a lot of ecosystems and chopping down…

Counterpoint from a Swedish perspective:

https://www.svebio.se/en/our-mission/is-there-enough-land/

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#218

Post by js8 » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 9:39 PM UTC

rubyist5eva wrote: post #205

js8 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I downvoted you. Fighting climate change is very important, and not just a power grab. People need to rise up and protest against things like these, so that power grab wouldn't happen. Just to clarify, perhaps my point is not obvious. We want to have carbon taxes because they address the problem of economic externality in combusting fossil fuels. Different example of a similar tax, that aims to solve a similar proble…

Except I don't own a vehicle. I use public transit, walk, ride a bike, carpool - do all of the things that the government "wants me to do" but I don't get a rebate or any kind of exemption. I pay the same amount of road tax as my father who drives a Ford F150 an hour to an from work everyday, and my step-mother that drives an SUV even though she has zero need for one. I probably actually pay _relatively_ more because…

I would hope it was clear from the example, but I mean road tax that is paid by actual users of the road, not all taxpayers.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#219

Post by aembleton » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 9:41 PM UTC

DSingularity wrote: post #76

BelenusMordred wrote: post #5

> Private jets will enjoy an exemption through classification of "business aviation" as the use of aircraft by firms for carriage of passengers or goods as an "aid to the conduct of their business", if generally considered not for public hire. > A further exemption is given for "pleasure" flights whereby an aircraft is used for "personal or recreational" purposes not associated with a business or professional use. Su…

At what point will we stop acting as if the government legislates to represent the interests of the constituency who voted for the politicians and not the elites who fund its politicians?

It's not the government, at this stage it is just the EU Commission who are unelected. MEPs could still reject it.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#220

Post by whatever1 » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 9:44 PM UTC

derriz wrote: post #210

whatever1 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lazard's analysis is bad at best, but that is a separate discussion. The main issue is that renewables have huge upfront capital costs combined with 0 storage &transportation capabilities (cannot put your wind energy in a tank). Of course these are not issues for the West, but I don't know how you can go to an isolated Indian village and tell them that they need to spit 20k per household to install solar panels. Comb…

What do you mean the analysis is "bad"? It's widely referenced and they explain their methodology in detail and their data sources. If there's an aspect of the methodology you think is bad, I'd be interested in hearing it. Their results are pretty much in line with other independent studies of the same thing. I don't understand why you'd compare the capital cost of utility scale electricity generation against that fo…

The analysis is completely wrong for a country that is not in the West.

Their first assumption is low interest rates for business loans and availability of investment capital. Again, we take these two for granted in the West, but they are not.

Second big assumption is the existence of distribution grid and storage. The fact is that we have almost 1 Billion people off grid and by making fossil fuels more expensive to them pretty much we decide that they need to stay impoverished for many generations to come.

Regarding your comment on renewable energy added in 2020, you failed to mention that the bulk of it comes from China, where the Party has made the strategic decision to do so regardless of cost.