Why I will never pursue cheating again • Hacker News Board

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#411

Post by cgp » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 5:10 PM UTC

gizmo wrote: post #338

nyustern wrote: post #189

Hi Panos. I was actually a student in your class last fall semester. To alleviate any doubt you may have, the class was known as “Info Tech,” and you had two sessions on Mondays and Wednesdays (2-3:15, 3:30-4:45 pm) in KMEC. Now I have a couple of problems with your post. Firstly, you attribute your lower evaluation rating of 5.3 for last fall semester solely to your lower tolerance of cheating. However, there is som…

> what really irks me about your post is your complacence with cheating because it’s not in your self-interest to pursue those who cheated Why don't you hold the other professors to the same standard? It's not as if the other professors are oblivious to rampant cheating. But what's the point of trying to catch cheaters if it hurts the class dynamic and if those who get caught don't even get suspended? The students ar…

> But what's the point of trying to catch cheaters if it hurts the class dynamic and if those who get caught don't even get suspended? The students are clearly OK with cheating otherwise the cheaters would be ostracized by the other students. The school management clearly doesn't care, since they don't take action against those who are caught red-handed.

So, what you're saying is, it's too hard, the risks too great -- therefore we shouldn't try?

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#412

Post by jmonegro » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 5:10 PM UTC

onan_barbarian wrote: post #19

While there's much to be said in favor of more creative assignments that aren't minor variants of last year's assignments, the author has drawn the wrong conclusion from what happened. 22 cheats out of 108 is big - and the real proportion may have been even higher, given that it seemed like he caught only either blatant cheats or conscience-stricken/less brazen cheats (the latter category from when he acted people to…

> 22 cheats out of 108 is big

Looks like standard 80/20 to me, nothing surprising.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#413

Post by hackinthebochs » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 5:10 PM UTC

Dove wrote: post #382

lutorm wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He works for the University. If the employer is not interested in rewarding him (or even penalizing him) for doing something that not only is stressful but that takes tons of time away from his useful work, why should he? An example of what you are doing in your job for coworkers and society at large while being penalized for it by your employer would be appropriate here.

If the employer is not interested in rewarding him (or even penalizing him) for doing something that not only is stressful but that takes tons of time away from his useful work, why should he? Because it is the right and honorable thing to do in his position. If doing the right thing were always easy and profitable, we'd have no need for morals. There are lots of situations where people are encouraged and rewarded fo…

This is a common misconception. The professor is there to perform research, only incidentally to teach. It's not his responsibility to police students. It's the responsibility of the entire system to have policies in place that effectively prosecute cheating. When that system fails it is not his moral obligation to carry that burden himself.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#414

Post by Groxx » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 5:11 PM UTC

redcap wrote: post #324

Groxx wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Essays are inherently problematic in most fields, because they're effectively always at least partially graded on the quality of writing, which doesn't have any connection with how well something was learned (which should have a connection with grade). Some profs separate it out better than others, but students usually have only vague or zero knowledge about who falls where, so the default approach is that, regardles…

While writing in and of itself is not connected to field knowledge. You really need to be a good writer to be an effective communicator. One of the university degrees I did (effectively an arts degree) involved doing a lot of essay writing as part of the major. While I don7t really use the field knowledge I studied in the degree I credit my reasonably ok writing ability to all essays I wrote - which I have put to goo…

I completely agree, it's a skill everyone should have. But it has no relation to any kind of proof that you've learned something, outside of communication courses. Despite this, it still impacts grades everywhere. That's a pretty definite disconnect.

Not that I think "standardized" tests are any better. Just that increased awareness of this kind of effect on perception might decrease its impact.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#415

Post by hackinthebochs » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 5:12 PM UTC

chopsueyar wrote: post #380

gizmo wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hold on a second! The student accused the professor of racism in the post I replied to. I quote: "It got to the point where we [...] discussed it and concluded you were just racist". To accuse a professor semi-anonymously of racism is completely outrageous, so yes, I ridiculed him for that. Especially when absolutely no evidence of potential racism is provided. Careers are destroyed over baseless accusations of racis…

"One interesting observation: Almost all cheating happened within groups with cultural ties. Koreans copy from Koreans. Indians from Indians. Greeks from Greeks. Jews from Jews. Chinese from Chinese." Is he racist? How is he able to determine ethnicity and statistically link it to cheating?

Because the software showed the assignment the cheater cribbed from. Either knowing the students, or in most cases their names would give away their ethnicity.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#416

Post by hackinthebochs » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 5:19 PM UTC

aik wrote: post #191

From the post: "My role is to educate and teach, not to enforce honest behavior. This is a university, not a kindergarten." In my opinion this is one of the primary issues with a lot of teachers: I don't believe a teacher's job is specifically to narrowly teach the subject matter at hand, but more broadly teach the student whatever it takes to assist the student in succeeding in life, and especially within their give…

It's amazing how much we expect from teachers.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#417

Post by Groxx » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 5:21 PM UTC

scott_s wrote: post #395

Groxx wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You attempted to refute the claim that people should control themselves better in such situations. And you did so very clearly, by inferring that spreading the mood to the 75% was perfectly logical. As a student who has not cheated, but has had to sit through countless lectures about cheating, and a few where large portions of the class did, I ask you and (other?) teachers this question: to whom are you teaching? The…

He's not saying it's logical . He's saying it's inevitable based on how people are wired.

And therefore we shouldn't control ourselves better?

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#418

Post by eropple » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 5:26 PM UTC

ori_b wrote: post #404

eropple wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They will whine. Endlessly. Then again, they'll do that anyway.

So give them a chance to appeal.

Sure. What I mean is, they'll whine to you anyway, trying to get around the system. And, practically, refusing to talk to them is difficult-to-impossible.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#419

Post by scott_s » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 5:31 PM UTC

Groxx wrote: post #417

scott_s wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's not saying it's logical . He's saying it's inevitable based on how people are wired.

And therefore we shouldn't control ourselves better?

People have limits. I don't know enough about the situation to know if he was under the kind of load that would cause most people to act differently, but I suspect that is the case.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#420

Post by pmb » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 5:44 PM UTC

badclient wrote: post #228

Panos wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me start by indicating some logical flaws in the timing of the events: The office hours for the class were from 12.30 to 1.30, Monday and Wednesday. The class was starting at 2pm. According to your account, I showed up at 1pm, being 30 mins "late". Then the first student came in at 1pm and came out at 1.20pm? Then it took me another 50 minutes while I was running around? So I came to talk to you at 2.10pm, when I…

I don't think being pissed at 28/108 students is a valid excuse for acting pissed at everyone. That is a major professional flaw and a post on how you plan to control your emotion may be appreciated by future students. I have had professors that had me write huge essays and then proceeded to just put a huge ass check and never really read past the first paragraph. If I plagiarized and cited my frustration with all th…

Have you ever talked to a group in which more than a quarter were actively hostile and disinterested? It poisons the room. It's not "logical" that it should do that, but it is an empirical fact that it does.