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Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

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Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#341

Post by danielmarkbruce »

delaaxe wrote: post #248
danielmarkbruce wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it also weird that crypto enthusiasts assume that you obviously can't trust a central clearing house (or similar mechanism) when they have been working well for hundreds of years? In numerous cases humans trust institutions for certain things, and those institutions are usually strongly incentivized to act honorably, and do so. And when they don't, the court system works pretty well. At least in the countries w…

No one would want to use a clearing system if it was possible to do without. Now it is.

I think this is a bad assumption.

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#342

Post by danielmarkbruce »

carlsborg wrote: post #255
liaukovv wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems to be an issue with chinese institutions, not with concept of trust in general.

"institutions are usually strongly incentivized to act honorably". I am providing a counter example.

Yep, it's not perfect. It's just pretty darned good is all I'm saying.

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#343

Post by lottin »

MathYouF wrote: post #337
lottin wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cryptocurrencies are not used as currency anywhere in the world, because they have properties that make them highly undesirable as money. People who live in countries facing monetary problems will use a foreign currency if they can, but the thing is, using a foreign currency and avoiding some of the problems of hyperinflation is just a marginal improvement, it doesn't solve 99% of the problems that these people are h…

My knowledge of the usage and value and improvement on quality of life for people using cryotocurrency in nations experiencing massive hyperinflation come from one of my closest friends from Venezuela, who I talk to every week for hours (I'm sitting next to him right now as I type this). Where does yours come from? Because what you're saying directly contradicts his reported experiences for both him and relatives and…

Where does my knowledge come from? It comes from studying. I studied economic theory, economic history, the history of the international monetary system, and the economies of many of these countries. I read the reports from reputable organisations such as the IMF and the UN, and the regular news sources. So I'm well-informed and therefore I don't need to invent made-up Venezuelan friends like every Bitcoin propagandist does. I know, for example, that hyperinflation is one of the least pressing problems for Venezuelans. Most of them don't have savings that can be eroded by rapidly increasing prices, and the ones that do aren't stupid enough to invest their savings in an unsafe asset that can lose >50% of its value in one evening. Cryptocurrencies improve the lives of absolutely no one, so stop pretending that they do.

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#344

Post by nly »

puranjay wrote: post #274
lilyball wrote: post #165

> Users can trade the tokens anonymously 24 hours a day, seven days a week, from anywhere, unhindered by capital controls, “know your client” rules imposed on broker-dealers, and other frictions of the traditional financial system. I find it really weird how crypto folks keep pretending that financial regulation is an obviously bad thing, as opposed to restrictions put in place in response to real problems

You're seeing this from a western, first world perspective. If you're in a third world country, you likely don't have access to robust, transparent local stock markets. Whatever exchanges might exist tend to be rife with scammy companies, insider trading and poor regulation. If you want to invest in, say, the US stock market, you'd have to jump through a ton of hoops or have a ton of money, essentially locking out al…

Most people in Somalia probably don't have the disposable income to invest in stocks...

The notion of having the money to invest in stocks is made from a position of privilege

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#345

Post by danielmarkbruce »

herbst wrote: post #278
hef19898 wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's call it regulated clearing houses then.

Regulated by who tho? There is a natural misstrust for everything involving the U.S. As service provider around here because of the weak privacy laws compared to us (Switzerland) or our neighbors . And yet we heavily depend(ed) on the American led credit card system.

Not for most people. Most people in the US trust institutions without even realizing/thinking about it. I don't think they care.

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#346

Post by MathYouF »

lottin wrote: post #343
MathYouF wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My knowledge of the usage and value and improvement on quality of life for people using cryotocurrency in nations experiencing massive hyperinflation come from one of my closest friends from Venezuela, who I talk to every week for hours (I'm sitting next to him right now as I type this). Where does yours come from? Because what you're saying directly contradicts his reported experiences for both him and relatives and…

Where does my knowledge come from? It comes from studying. I studied economic theory, economic history, the history of the international monetary system, and the economies of many of these countries. I read the reports from reputable organisations such as the IMF and the UN, and the regular news sources. So I'm well-informed and therefore I don't need to invent made-up Venezuelan friends like every Bitcoin propagandi…

And if I were to go through the effort of providing proof of my Venezuelan best friend and his accounts of life in Venezuela, since my hacker news profile is the same name as my real identity profiles, I'm sure you'd capitulate and appologize for assuming anyone who disagrees with you is arguing in bad faith?

For posterity, I have a github profile of this same name, and my venezuelan friend and I are doing a hackathon project to allow Venezuelans to use crypto in the exact way I've described. In one month that project and a youtube video will be uploaded for it.

The person above who assumes that people argue in bad faith and that first hand reports are meaningless is not someone you should emulate or consider reliable. He's lost to his ego and dogma, please safely ignore him.

Privileged people have no idea what struggles others face and don't have much to lose by being wrong about their bad assumptions anyway. Let the way he thinks serve as a cautionary tale.

I doubt the person above (lottin) would be willing to share his identity, and have the foul temper and bad faith arguments of his associated with his real persona. This should tell you all you need to know if true.

Anyway, I won't be responding to the above poster anymore, you know what Twain said about arguing with fools.

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#347

Post by KirillPanov »

thebean11 wrote: post #328
mypastself wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if you’re joking or not, but the entire purpose of this type of token is to be pegged to the price of dollar or some other real-life asset. It stops fulfulling that role if the price expressed in its peg currency varies (hence the name “stablecoin”). Any type of inflation or deflation separate from the dollar breaks the token’s utility.

The price is pegged to the dollar, not the quantity in circulation. My point is that if the price is over a dollar, you mint more of them to pull the price down. To me, DAI going over USD just indicates supply not meeting demand.

> you mint more of them to pull the price down

No, in order to pull the price down you need to mint more of them and sell those new DAI into the market.

Doing this saddles the minter-seller with a long USD/ETH position: they have to lock up a bunch of collateral in order to mint new DAI, and if USD/ETH drops enough their collateral will be vaporized. If no sellers believe that USD/ETH is going to rise, none will be willing to take that risk.

DAI doesn't work like Tether. DAI aren't really "quasi-dollars". They're margin loans owed by other people. To bring them into existence, you need to find somebody who wants a margin loan in order to go long.

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#348

Post by SCM-Enthusiast »

marton78 wrote: post #207
woah wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard to keep the price of Apple stock a secret

That is not the point. By manipulating the Apple stock price the system sees and acts upon you can extract huge amounts of money. The actual price is irrelevant in this case.

There are many mechanisms of trading. Some use a couple different oracles and average(more complex but essentially that's what it is). In order to 'minipulate' the oracles, you would get eaten alive by arbitrage. If there's a difference across exchanges, HFT bots will equalize. Chain link takes that to the extreme and requires no oracle, only arbitrage. Since any arbitrage opportunity will be exploited, you can allow the active trading price and take that at face value. You can actually minipulate that price, by selling at a reduced rate but the thesis is that it would be economically disadvantages to do so.

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#349

Post by metalex »

antihero wrote: post #282
metalex wrote: post #101

I'm an investor in one of these (as a disclaimer and because I'm excited about the tech) -- https://structure.fi/ . Personally, I think this is going to be huge over time. Trading on-chain tokenized stocks 24/7 is a powerful layer above the traditional financial markets.

Isn't this just trading internet magic beans? As an investor, you have 100% a vested interest in this getting big at all cost , because otherwise, who's going to buy your magic beans from you? So anything you say about is kind of compromised.

Circular reference because most small time investors (like me) invest in what they’re excited about :)

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#350

Post by metalex »

gomox wrote: post #113
ZephyrBlu wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you not concerned about this turning into a similar situation as Tether? I.e. the assets end up not being backed by money.

The way these work is totally transparent (open source smart contracts govern the issued tokens). There's no risk of hidden insolvency (there are significant technical risks, though).

Spot on. The risk here is all technical given the mechanics are public — no potential for a tether situation here.
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