Why I will never pursue cheating again • Hacker News Board

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#381

Post by prodigal_erik » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 3:04 PM UTC

astine wrote: post #360

demallien wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is only true if you think that good employers are hiring on the basis of grades. You know what, I've hired a half dozen or so programmers, and I've done interviews with about 100, and not once have I ever looked at their grades or their faculty. I don't think I'm unusual in that respect. I think employers using grades as a basis for a hiring decision is every bit as silly as professors worrying about their stude…

You're failing to think things through. Employers only base their hiring decisions on grades for recent graduates, but nearly all employers base their hiring decision on the student's degree and the institution it comes from. Good grades help with that. There is also the issue of graduate school which certainly does take grades into account.

Anyone who disagrees isn't thinking? Please. I've been in interview loops for years at different companies. We discuss every candidate's demonstrated problem-solving and design abilities, and culture fit for the ones we don't rule out quickly. Nobody ever brings up the reputation of any school they went to. We just don't care at all. Allegedly somebody out there does, but I have yet to see it happen.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#382

Post by Dove » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 3:07 PM UTC

lutorm wrote: post #167

Dove wrote: post #123

I am completely aghast. This professor is considering only what path will avoid the most hassle and difficulty for himself. Any duty he might owe honest students, fellow faculty, or even society at large doesn't seem to figure into it. He seems to see no problem at all with effectively selling high grades to cheaters, so long as there's no risk or hassle involved for him . And because he gets to use a term like Nash…

He works for the University. If the employer is not interested in rewarding him (or even penalizing him) for doing something that not only is stressful but that takes tons of time away from his useful work, why should he? An example of what you are doing in your job for coworkers and society at large while being penalized for it by your employer would be appropriate here.

If the employer is not interested in rewarding him (or even penalizing him) for doing something that not only is stressful but that takes tons of time away from his useful work, why should he?

Because it is the right and honorable thing to do in his position. If doing the right thing were always easy and profitable, we'd have no need for morals.

There are lots of situations where people are encouraged and rewarded for doing the wrong thing in their line of work.

There are state prosecutors whose compensation depends on how many criminals they successfully prosecute, so they take cases where the law is obviously unjust but they can win (when using their discretion to safeguard justice is supposed to be part of the job).

There are salesmen whose compensation depends entirely on how many units they are able to sell, so they lie to customers.

There are soldiers who are ordered to engage in immoral acts. It is an essential part of their duty to refuse those orders, but that decision certainly does not come without stress and cost.

I worked in defense contracting, and sometimes served as an engineering liason to various national defense organizations. There was occasionally immense social pressure on me to make our products look better than they were . . . but--and never mind that it would have been in my employer's interest--that would have been wrong.

I could go on. The point is this: in most circumstances in life, there are ways to make money or make life less stressful by doing the wrong thing. You can argue that that's the fault of the people at the top of the system -- they've set up the incentives wrong. I agree; having a just society literally means that the incentives point toward right behavior. But that is their problem, not yours. Your duty is to do the right thing, regardless of the circumstances.

Academia has a role in both teaching and certifying knowledge, and is paid by students for the certification, not by industry for its accuracy. There is certainly moral hazard in that, and it deserves a systemic fix. That is no excuse for succumbing to it, for throwing up one's hands, blaming the system, and unleashing remorseless cheaters on fellow faculty and society.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#383

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 3:11 PM UTC

Panos wrote: post #345

nyustern wrote: post #189

Hi Panos. I was actually a student in your class last fall semester. To alleviate any doubt you may have, the class was known as “Info Tech,” and you had two sessions on Mondays and Wednesdays (2-3:15, 3:30-4:45 pm) in KMEC. Now I have a couple of problems with your post. Firstly, you attribute your lower evaluation rating of 5.3 for last fall semester solely to your lower tolerance of cheating. However, there is som…

Wait, as I just noticed this: You collaborated with another student? In an individual assignment? In which you had very clear directions not to collaborate with other students? I am really sorry that I did not catch you. You would have received the penalty that all other students who "collaborated" received, which I guess would have brought your grade to a C-.

[deleted]

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#384

Post by sycren » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 3:11 PM UTC

Panos wrote: post #345

nyustern wrote: post #189

Hi Panos. I was actually a student in your class last fall semester. To alleviate any doubt you may have, the class was known as “Info Tech,” and you had two sessions on Mondays and Wednesdays (2-3:15, 3:30-4:45 pm) in KMEC. Now I have a couple of problems with your post. Firstly, you attribute your lower evaluation rating of 5.3 for last fall semester solely to your lower tolerance of cheating. However, there is som…

Wait, as I just noticed this: You collaborated with another student? In an individual assignment? In which you had very clear directions not to collaborate with other students? I am really sorry that I did not catch you. You would have received the penalty that all other students who "collaborated" received, which I guess would have brought your grade to a C-.

If collaboration is bouncing ideas off each other, would you still give a penalty?

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#385

Post by nateberkopec » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 3:13 PM UTC

Hi Panos, another NYU Stern student here.

All I have to say is THANK YOU. The sense of entitlement in Stern classes at the undergraduate level is ridiculous. I'm glad to see someone cracking down on cheating at my university. Even though I know how prevalent cheating at Stern is, it was still shocking to hear some of the numbers (1 in 5 being admitted cheaters).

I'd like to add that as a student who genuinely enjoys learning (in certain topics that I'm interested in, of course), those "creative" or "open ended" assignments that you mentioned are way more fun as a student than the typical stuff you get in an intro Info Tech class.

I took Info Tech last year with another professor and absolutely hated it. The professor was clearly "checked out" and working on other projects. It certainly does nothing to help the atmosphere of Stern (if you don't go to work at a big financial firm, you're worthless) if the IT intro class is so boring and bland (when there's so much interesting shit going on right now in IT!).

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#386

Post by chopsueyar » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 3:14 PM UTC

wisty wrote: post #264

nyustern wrote: post #189

Hi Panos. I was actually a student in your class last fall semester. To alleviate any doubt you may have, the class was known as “Info Tech,” and you had two sessions on Mondays and Wednesdays (2-3:15, 3:30-4:45 pm) in KMEC. Now I have a couple of problems with your post. Firstly, you attribute your lower evaluation rating of 5.3 for last fall semester solely to your lower tolerance of cheating. However, there is som…

Correlation != causation, but I doubt it wasn't related. You might not have marked him down for his anti-cheating stance (directly), but chasing cheats might have affected his attitude (playing "prison guard" may not have put him in a nice mood), which caused you to mark him down. Here's a theory - Panos burnt himself out trying to chase the cheats, and deal with the bad-will and tantrums. This left a lot less time a…

would you rather be taught by a hard-assed jerk who cracked down on the cheats, or a nice guy who turned a blind eye?

The guy who turns a blind eye will probably be an effective teacher to those willing and wanting to learn.

Removing a cheater from the class does not help them learn more effectively, nor does it help the non-cheaters learn more effectively.

Why waste on policing, what can be spent on teaching.

It is not like the cheaters, when confronted, realized they were losing all sorts of knowledge they could otherwise obtain.

Ethically, I have a bigger problem with a student submitting his creative works to be used in a private corporations database AND charge the student and school for the "service".

It is not only the cheating students that are undermining the credibility of the University and its degrees.

If you want to teach morality, once somebody gets to college age, it may be a bit late for reformation.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#387

Post by astine » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 3:17 PM UTC

demallien wrote: post #366

astine wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're failing to think things through. Employers only base their hiring decisions on grades for recent graduates, but nearly all employers base their hiring decision on the student's degree and the institution it comes from. Good grades help with that. There is also the issue of graduate school which certainly does take grades into account.

You're failing to think things through Really? Employers only base their hiring decisions on grades for recent graduates, but nearly all employers base their hiring decision on the student's degree and the institution it comes from. False, I am a walking talking counter-example, but it's the same for all of the companies at which I have sat on recruitment interview boards, and also true for every company that has eve…

"I am a walking talking counter-example"

A single counter example is not a trend. Your experience is not the entire industry and the tech industry is just a small portion of jobs available to college graduates across the nation. Many, many industries care about degrees and how well you did. Just try to get a job at a major law firm without one. I've had friends apply for jobs as AAs and their grades came up. The tech industry is the exception, not the norm.

So, grades matter. They just didn't for you.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#388

Post by chopsueyar » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 3:22 PM UTC

Panos wrote: post #154

shaggyfrog wrote: post #4

While I sympathize with the instructor and think he should be incentivized to fight cheating, I'm not pleased with the use of services like TurnItIn. Basically, the student gives someone some faceless company a license to whatever they create for perpetuity. Are these companies ever compelled to delete material on request? And who could audit that?

I am the professor who wrote the blog post. What you mention was a very big problem for the adoption of services like Turnitin. In fact, when there is a match, there is no way of seeing the "source" of the homework, unless you get a permission from the "owner" of the homework. Also, students when they submit the assignment to Turnitin, they assign a license to index the content for plagiarism detection purposes, and…

students when they submit the assignment to Turnitin, they assign a license to index the content for plagiarism detection purposes, and for nothing else.

I thought you said it was integrated into Blackboard, thus not requiring students to directly submit their assignments to Turnitin?

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#389

Post by astine » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 3:24 PM UTC

prodigal_erik wrote: post #381

astine wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're failing to think things through. Employers only base their hiring decisions on grades for recent graduates, but nearly all employers base their hiring decision on the student's degree and the institution it comes from. Good grades help with that. There is also the issue of graduate school which certainly does take grades into account.

Anyone who disagrees isn't thinking? Please. I've been in interview loops for years at different companies. We discuss every candidate's demonstrated problem-solving and design abilities, and culture fit for the ones we don't rule out quickly. Nobody ever brings up the reputation of any school they went to. We just don't care at all. Allegedly somebody out there does, but I have yet to see it happen.

"Anyone who disagrees isn't thinking?"

I didn't say that. But the whole world is not the Bay Area. I've known folks for whom this was an issue.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#390

Post by evilduck » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 3:28 PM UTC

dkersten wrote: post #312

Panos wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see your point. But consider the following: these numbers are for the students that admitted cheating. There was a significant number of other assignments for which I suspected cheating but I did not have enough evidence. So, I erred on the side of having false negatives in the accusations, rather than false positives. Now, if you are teaching a class where you have some suspicion that half of the students have che…

I felt that I am teaching a class full of kids that come just for the grade, and not for learning. From reading your blog post and your comments here, I got the impression that you cared more about your pay raise than about the students learning. Now, I'll be the first to admit that I could have misinterpreted whats been said and that you were probably a victim of circumstance, but you blame the guy for demonstrating…

My impression was that it was just another (small) data point in the long list of negative incentives for chasing down cheaters. Most of it seemed focused on the disproportionate amount of time it took to enforce the rules, and demonstrating how blatant the cheaters are about it.