Open letter: Ban surveillance-based advertising • Hacker News Board

Re: Open letter: Ban surveillance-based advertising

#21

Post by charcircuit » Wed, Jul 07, 2021, 12:31 PM UTC

eingaeKaiy8ujie wrote: post #18

charcircuit wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Then just post about your IDE on Elixir forums. Not all users of Elixir hang out on Elixir forums. There are plenty that spend the majority of their time on the internet elsewhere. >and I certainly don't want ad companies that are following me on random websites to know that I'm a programmer who is interested in Elixir or any other data about me. Why not? Systems can become more efficient if they know you better.

>Why not? Because it's a privacy risk. Such information can be used to identify me and used against me.

>Such information can be used to identify me

Good. We can make things more efficient.

>used against me

How could someone for example knowing you like Elixer use that knowledge against you? It's not a big deal.

Re: Open letter: Ban surveillance-based advertising

#22

Post by danbruc » Wed, Jul 07, 2021, 12:33 PM UTC

charcircuit wrote: post #8

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #4

Do we have a good proposed legal definition of surveillance-based advertising?

The report defines it as >In this context, we use the term ‘surveillance-based advertising’ as a blanket >term for digital advertising that is targeted at individuals or consumer >segments, usually through tracking and profiling based on personal data. This is ridiculous. If I am trying to advertise an Elixer IDE, then I don't want my advertisements shown to any random person on the internet. The majority of users on…

This is ridiculous. If I am trying to advertise an Elixer IDE, then I don't want my advertisements shown to any random person on the internet. The majority of users on the internet are not even developers. I want to be able to advertise to a consumer segment which consists of people who are interested in Elixir. "Surveillance" is essential to internet advertising.

This is ridiculous. And it is your problem. Why should I allow any company to track and profile me and everyone else only so that you can save on your advertising budget?

Re: Open letter: Ban surveillance-based advertising

#23

Post by danbruc » Wed, Jul 07, 2021, 12:36 PM UTC

charcircuit wrote: post #17

indigochill wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I am trying to advertise an Elixer IDE, then I don't want my advertisements shown to any random person on the internet. The definition in the report is poor. Yes, you always need to advertise to a segment. No, you don't have to spy on users to do it. How? Make a website about something and select advertisements that are relevant to the sort of people who are probably interested in the topic of the website. ReadT…

>No, you don't have to spy on users to do it. Assuming you are running an ad network you kind of have to in order to prevent ad fraud. Also by reducing that data you know about someone's interests is the knowledge that they have visited a site at least you will not be able to pick as good of an ad compared to if you had more data.

That is the problem of the ad network. If they have to deal with fraud then find a way to solve this but not at the cost of everyone.

Re: Open letter: Ban surveillance-based advertising

#24

Post by charcircuit » Wed, Jul 07, 2021, 12:36 PM UTC

RNAlfons wrote: post #19

charcircuit wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Then just post about your IDE on Elixir forums. Not all users of Elixir hang out on Elixir forums. There are plenty that spend the majority of their time on the internet elsewhere. >and I certainly don't want ad companies that are following me on random websites to know that I'm a programmer who is interested in Elixir or any other data about me. Why not? Systems can become more efficient if they know you better.

> Why not? Systems can become more efficient if they know you better. Not op but I've not clicked a single ad intentionally since Ads exist on the internet. I don't consider them a trusted source for recommendation and why should I? Why should anybody? Ads violate my attention and that's what they're made for. They do not help you find the best product. They want you to find THEIR product. Everybody knows that. The p…

>Not op but I've not clicked a single ad intentionally since Ads exist on the internet.

You are in the minority then. I personally have clicked on ads and have found products that I was interested in.

>I don't consider them a trusted source for recommendation and why should I?

I am not saying you should. Ads just allow people to get the word out about something.

>Ads violate my attention and that's what they're made for.

This is a poor mindset. If you go to a public place are all of the people there violating your attention because you can see and hear them?

Re: Open letter: Ban surveillance-based advertising

#25

Post by charcircuit » Wed, Jul 07, 2021, 12:38 PM UTC

danbruc wrote: post #23

charcircuit wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>No, you don't have to spy on users to do it. Assuming you are running an ad network you kind of have to in order to prevent ad fraud. Also by reducing that data you know about someone's interests is the knowledge that they have visited a site at least you will not be able to pick as good of an ad compared to if you had more data.

That is the problem of the ad network. If they have to deal with fraud then find a way to solve this but not at the cost of everyone.

The problem with abuse is not special to ad networks. All sites (once they reach a certain size) have to deal with it. Surveillance is needed to handle abuse of your service.

Re: Open letter: Ban surveillance-based advertising

#26

Post by danbruc » Wed, Jul 07, 2021, 12:41 PM UTC

charcircuit wrote: post #25

danbruc wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the problem of the ad network. If they have to deal with fraud then find a way to solve this but not at the cost of everyone.

The problem with abuse is not special to ad networks. All sites (once they reach a certain size) have to deal with it. Surveillance is needed to handle abuse of your service.

Surveillance is needed to handle abuse of your service.

Provide one example that can not be solved without surveillance.

Re: Open letter: Ban surveillance-based advertising

#27

Post by charcircuit » Wed, Jul 07, 2021, 12:41 PM UTC

danbruc wrote: post #22

charcircuit wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The report defines it as >In this context, we use the term ‘surveillance-based advertising’ as a blanket >term for digital advertising that is targeted at individuals or consumer >segments, usually through tracking and profiling based on personal data. This is ridiculous. If I am trying to advertise an Elixer IDE, then I don't want my advertisements shown to any random person on the internet. The majority of users on…

This is ridiculous. If I am trying to advertise an Elixer IDE, then I don't want my advertisements shown to any random person on the internet. The majority of users on the internet are not even developers. I want to be able to advertise to a consumer segment which consists of people who are interested in Elixir. "Surveillance" is essential to internet advertising. This is ridiculous. And it is your problem. Why shoul…

Because I don't want to waste the time of people who aren't interested in my ad in seeing my ad. It's a waste of money for me. The ad network will not be able to make money from having them click the ad. The user's time will be wasted because they are not interested in what I am selling. It's a lose lose lose situation. I want to create more win win win situations where everyone benefits. Tracking and profiling is needed to increase the rate that this happens.

Re: Open letter: Ban surveillance-based advertising

#28

Post by spinningslate » Wed, Jul 07, 2021, 12:44 PM UTC

charcircuit wrote: post #15

eingaeKaiy8ujie wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then just post about your IDE on Elixir forums. I'm not interested in seeing any ads on the Internet, and I certainly don't want ad companies that are following me on random websites to know that I'm a programmer who is interested in Elixir or any other data about me.

>Then just post about your IDE on Elixir forums. Not all users of Elixir hang out on Elixir forums. There are plenty that spend the majority of their time on the internet elsewhere. >and I certainly don't want ad companies that are following me on random websites to know that I'm a programmer who is interested in Elixir or any other data about me. Why not? Systems can become more efficient if they know you better.

>Why not? Systems can become more efficient if they know you better.

Because I didn't give them permission. I've no issue with anyone who willingly trades their privacy/digital footprint in return for services.

I don't want to. I will happily pay money for services I want. But, in all practical ways, the choice has been taken from me. It's impossible to have an online life without Google, Facebook, and myriad others hoovering up my every digital footstep.

And before someone says "ad-blockers" - I use them. And I decline cookie consent on every site I visit. It's tiresome, but I do it. Though even that marks me out: a signal in the noise. Even the act of trying to reject the surveillance economy helps that industry segment me.

It's obscene, and something needs done about it.

Re: Open letter: Ban surveillance-based advertising

#29

Post by RNAlfons » Wed, Jul 07, 2021, 12:45 PM UTC

charcircuit wrote: post #24

RNAlfons wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why not? Systems can become more efficient if they know you better. Not op but I've not clicked a single ad intentionally since Ads exist on the internet. I don't consider them a trusted source for recommendation and why should I? Why should anybody? Ads violate my attention and that's what they're made for. They do not help you find the best product. They want you to find THEIR product. Everybody knows that. The p…

>Not op but I've not clicked a single ad intentionally since Ads exist on the internet. You are in the minority then. I personally have clicked on ads and have found products that I was interested in. >I don't consider them a trusted source for recommendation and why should I? I am not saying you should. Ads just allow people to get the word out about something. >Ads violate my attention and that's what they're made…

> You are in the minority then. I personally have clicked on ads and have found products that I was interested in.

You don't happen to work in the industry? Because I know nobody who clicks on Ads. Maybe some of them do but they don't admit it which says a lot about doing it.

The only people I've ever met who said things like you did work for the advertisement industry since they're the only ones who believe that. They have to.

> I am not saying you should. Ads just allow people to get the word out about something.

How is this a justification for the intrusive, secretive and sometimes even abusive behaviour? There are other ways to "get the word out" out there. Healthy ways.

> This is a poor mindset. If you go to a public place are all of the people there violating your attention because you can see and hear them?

Sure they do if they jump right in front of my face and yell about some product I might be interested because I just came out of a shop and they've been watching me doing it and writing down how I look.

Re: Open letter: Ban surveillance-based advertising

#30

Post by charcircuit » Wed, Jul 07, 2021, 12:45 PM UTC

danbruc wrote: post #26

charcircuit wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with abuse is not special to ad networks. All sites (once they reach a certain size) have to deal with it. Surveillance is needed to handle abuse of your service.

Surveillance is needed to handle abuse of your service. Provide one example that can not be solved without surveillance.

Let's say you run a website with a sign on page. In order to log in a user typically you will run the password through an algorithm like argon2. Verifying a password for an account consumes CPU resources. A malicious may decide to DOS your site by just spamming this endpoint with bogus password to make you waste your time.

An easy fix with surveillance is to rate limit people based off their IP address. Without surveillance though there is not much you can do. Scale up your infrastructure to try and out scale the attack? Implement a global rate limit that locks regular users from being able to sign in?