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Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

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Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#251

How does this make sense? If they don't hold the underlying security, where does the value come from? This feel like it's another one of those "while money is flowing in it'll work, but if there's a run, it crashes spectacularly". If the liquidity dries up, i end up owning nothing. With a real security at least i end up owning a small part of apple, but here i literally own nothing.

It's a synthetic stock which is overcollateralized by stablecoins. So for example, if $100 dollars worth of the stock is issued, someone else had to lock up $150 dollars worth of USD to issue it. And when the price rises (and hence collateralization ratio drops), the issuer has to constantly top up collateral or run the risk of them being liquidated. How do they get price to track the real stock? By simple incentives…

> If the synthetic stock is trading lower than the real price, people have incentive to buy it.

Why? The synthetic stock isn't convertible, so there's no arbitrage opportunity.

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#253

> Users can trade the tokens anonymously 24 hours a day, seven days a week, from anywhere, unhindered by capital controls, “know your client” rules imposed on broker-dealers, and other frictions of the traditional financial system. I find it really weird how crypto folks keep pretending that financial regulation is an obviously bad thing, as opposed to restrictions put in place in response to real problems

I see three things going on here:

1. The practical: It’s not that regulation is bad but that many existing regulations are bad. They make obviously useful things illegal or impractical, are often worded in such a way they are basically impossible to apply to, for example, peer-to-peer systems. It’s possible to imagine (and indeed we should, and some countries are!) good regulation that is less stifling. (Note also that no regulation of specific financial products is required to make fraud and mis-selling illegal.)

2. The political: Financial regulations as they stand enable a huge surveillance and censorship/control apparatus. Purportedly this helps prevent terrorism etc. but many people do not agree that this is the right trade off. Financial regulations currently also give a handful of countries (and one in particular) a lot of power over the global financial system. Many believe they have too much power. These are political arguments but it is not a completely inexplicable political position for someone to be against financial surveillance and censorship, particularly when it comes to the US and other countries using them to exert power outside their borders. In which case, the financial regulatory environment we currently have is “bad” in that it delivers those things.

3. The countercultural: Cryptography and cryptocurrency are intertwined with countercultural groups and thinking (most obviously, but not exclusively the “cypherpunks”) because they are tools that allow activists, anarchists, subversives, marginalised or oppressed groups, organised crime (which, yes, is a form of counterculture), and others to communicate and operate more effectively and with lower risk. This means those groups are more highly represented in crypto. Obviously they’re likely to think rules that make their lives harder are bad. (This may seem like the “bad group” and maybe you like them being shut out and suppressed, but much social and political progress started as persecuted countercultural movements and subversive ideas.)

So yeah… is financial regulation bad? No. Not always and not necessarily.

Are current financial regulations bad? Yes if you value innovation, have certain political beliefs, or are part of a group that is (intentionally or otherwise) shut out of the system by them.

Let’s try and have better rules!

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unregulated would be a better description. This is a perfect example of the kind of financial asset that should be heavily regulated. How do these assets track the price and what guarantees they will always do so? If the answer is trust us (like stablecoins, nfts, etc), people buying them are marks, not customers.

You can read Maker DAO whitepaper to see how a stablecoin can be created without trust.

I did, and it doesn't.

The mechanism behind Maker DAO simply doesn't work. That's why it lost the peg so badly, and for so long. There simply wasn't any working mechanism to deal with the situation where the price rises above one dollar.

When people create ETH-collateralized DAI and sell them they are basically doing so in order to go leveraged-long on the ETH/USD pair. So when you use ETH to buy DAI from one of these people, you're basically making a (collateralized) margin loan to somebody who wants to increase their leverage. In return you get something sort of like the ability to short the ETH/USD pair (not exactly due to liquidations, but it's pretty close). All of this actually works as advertised: Maker pairs up people who want to go long with people who want to short. But what if there aren't equal demands for both sides of that trade?

If there aren't enough people who want to make margin loans (i.e. go quasi-short) Maker can raise the margin loan interest rate (i.e. stability fee) to make lending more attractive.

The big problem is if there aren't enough people who want to increase their long leverage. There will be too few DAI-sellers and the DAI price (in ETH) will go up above the USD price (in ETH). That's what happened. And kept happening.

The solution was to capitalize Maker DAO with centralized stablecoins -- Coinbase's USDC and Tether.

As a result, Maker DAO is effectively no more than an "index fund" of centralized stablecoins. It absolutely is not trustless.

It is trust laundering.

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither of the two hold water if you look at how Chinese institutions dealt with the Ant IPO and recently the Didi fiasco and probably many more if you look.

That seems to be an issue with chinese institutions, not with concept of trust in general.

"institutions are usually strongly incentivized to act honorably". I am providing a counter example.

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does this make sense? If they don't hold the underlying security, where does the value come from? Come on, this is cryptocurrency. The whole point is to con people into thinking a fake thing is real because blockchain and cash in; with the off chance that if enough people believe, then their belief will make the fake thing real.

You should read up on the last decade in Venezuela, which used to be the richest country in Latin America, and having wealthy professionals see their savings evaporate due to 1,000,000% inflation because of the actions of a government they democratically elected. Belief is the only thing holding together a lot of the things that we rely on to keep society functioning the way it does. I'm guessing (though not assuming…

It's not like if hyperinflation could be avoided everything else should be fine. No, hyperinflation is a sign that the economy is grossly mismanaged, and that in turn is likely the result of desperate, incompetent government facing all sorts of economic, social and political problems. Switching to a different currency isn't going to fix a failed state, sorry.

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#257
post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you take away all the buzzwords you’ll notice that the core utility of uniswap is the “decentralization” of services which are offered by the traditional finance system. If I contact my bank, will they allow me to become a liquidity provider for USD-EUR pair and give me a cut of USD-EUR exchanges that they make? If not, which traditional financial institution do I have to contact for this? Actually, I would be o…

Yes you can provide liquidity for eur-usd if you jump through all the hoops. A quick google search will show you that lots of savings accounts have positive yields. Rates have been low cause of fed action but banks have provided positive returns in savings accounts since like forever ago.

Seems like a lot of blockchain critiques involve some variant of "you can already do that if you jump through all the hoops," without recognizing that it's worthwhile to remove the hoops.

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it also weird that crypto enthusiasts assume that you obviously can't trust a central clearing house (or similar mechanism) when they have been working well for hundreds of years? In numerous cases humans trust institutions for certain things, and those institutions are usually strongly incentivized to act honorably, and do so. And when they don't, the court system works pretty well. At least in the countries w…

This obviously doesn't hold up if we look at the original purpose of the blockchain, ie Bitcoin, to avoid issuers of money to debase said money. Which has in fact happened thousands of times through out history and keeps happening to this very minute.

All the evidence shows that a rate of inflation around 2% averaged over the business cycle is beneficial and necessary for the economy. Trying to adopt a deflationary currency is akin to refusing to drink water because people drown in lakes.

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#259
post #15
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But to oversimplify, under the Mirror Protocol, the idea is to keep prices of the synthetic -- or “mirrored” -- equities in the ballpark of the real thing by offering incentives for traders to arbitrage price discrepancies and manage the actual supply of tokens. Users can create, or “mint,” new tokens when prices are too high by posting collateral, and destroy, or “burn,” tokens when prices are too low, driving the…

It’s the redemption of the real underlying that allows ETFs to work.

Not always. There are synthetic ETFs backed by nothing but swap contracts.

For example, commodities ETFs typically work by throwing cash in to treasuries and purchasing the total return swap contracts between those treasuries and some benchmark of commodity future contracts.

The major difference with these blockchain tokens is that the collateral (the stablecoin) held against the stock benchmark is itself completely synthetic.

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#260
post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you take away all the buzzwords you’ll notice that the core utility of uniswap is the “decentralization” of services which are offered by the traditional finance system. If I contact my bank, will they allow me to become a liquidity provider for USD-EUR pair and give me a cut of USD-EUR exchanges that they make? If not, which traditional financial institution do I have to contact for this? Actually, I would be o…

Yes you can provide liquidity for eur-usd if you jump through all the hoops. A quick google search will show you that lots of savings accounts have positive yields. Rates have been low cause of fed action but banks have provided positive returns in savings accounts since like forever ago.

> Yes you can provide liquidity for eur-usd if you jump through all the hoops.

The emphasized part is important. Most people either can't or don't know how to jump through these hoops. Is it even worth it to jump through these hoops, when I only have 100 USD to "invest"? Entities like Uniswap make the process much easier and widely-accessible, which makes a big difference (particularly if you live outside the developed world).

Furthermore, you did not respond to what I asked: which institution do I need to contact for this? My bank?

> A quick google search will show you that lots of savings accounts have positive yields. Rates have been low cause of fed action but banks have provided positive returns in savings accounts since like forever ago.

This comment is rather US-centric. My experience where I am right now (outside of the US) is that interest rates currently are either negative (yes, you have to pay money to the bank to park your money there; example: [0]) or basically zero (an interest rate of 0.01% might not even cover the "maintenance fees" of your account, let alone losses due to inflation, particularly if you are not rich... might as well just stash the cash under my mattress and keep the maintenance fees to myself).

So, yeah... this is what entities like Uniswap provide that traditional financial institutions don't. Among other things:

* Capacity to borrow, lend, buy and sell "crypto-assets" or whatever you want to call them (most traditional financial institutions will not touch them with a 10-feet pole, for obvious reasons);

* Capacity to do those things with minimum friction/overhead, from anywhere in the world, at any time (no KYC, no gatekeepers);

* Exchange and interest rates that are actually decided by the market, rather than centrally planned (by your bank and central banks), which leads to reasonable interest rates for borrowing/lending (i.e. positive rates).

Of course, you can argue that some of these "features" are "anti-features" (e.g. no KYC = no friction, but it also means that perhaps money laundering could take advantage of it). Either way, it seems clear to me that Uniswap et al. enable you to do things that you (or, at least, "most people") simply cannot do within the traditional financial system; you may not see too much value in these things, and even be generally suspect of "cryptocurrencies", but it seems complicated to argue that Uniswap does not bring anything new to the table.

The proof is in the pudding... if Uniswap was not useful (beyond what traditional financial institutions already provide), you wouldn't see so many people flocking to it.

[0] https://www.nationalbanken.dk/en/marketinfo/official_interes...

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