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The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy infrastructure woes

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131–140 of 258 posts

Re: The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy infrastructure woes

#132
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another thing Northern Europe has going for it is that we generally go all-in on insulation. 300mm of insulation are norm in newly built house, meaning you can heat a whole house above the Arctic line with less than 5000 kWh a year. Insulation is _dirt cheap_ compared to lifetime heating costs AND it also keeps the house cool during the summer. Such a no-brainer.

Out of curiosity, what is the effect of this thick insulation on indoor CO₂ levels? Do these houses usually have ventilation systems that can compensate?

Usually heat exchanger ventilations. Fresh air comes in and exchanges heat with used air coming out, so you get fresh air but with the indoor temperature.

Re: The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy infrastructure woes

#134
post #108

Am I the only one that find this article incredibly confusing? It starts off talking about wanting to move energy production to renewable sources. Great, I'm with you so far. A major issue with renewable energy (solar and wind) is that they're variable, not constant. This results in uneven power. The wind doesn't blow, it's cloudy or it's night time. So we need a way to convert this variable renewable energy into con…

The big point is demand response in smart heaters allowing time shifting.

He also, confusingly, makes a second point about how efficiency can to avoid building powerplants/storage.

Replacing old inefficient heaters with new smart and efficient heaters is a double win.

If you power them from renewables it's a triple win.

Also night time energy is often low carbon because of nuclear and wind combined with low demand, but modern smart heaters can respond at a much smaller scale to use "excess" energy.

Re: The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy infrastructure woes

#135
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another thing Northern Europe has going for it is that we generally go all-in on insulation. 300mm of insulation are norm in newly built house, meaning you can heat a whole house above the Arctic line with less than 5000 kWh a year. Insulation is _dirt cheap_ compared to lifetime heating costs AND it also keeps the house cool during the summer. Such a no-brainer.

Out of curiosity, what is the effect of this thick insulation on indoor CO₂ levels? Do these houses usually have ventilation systems that can compensate?

Yes you need active ventilation systems, because the thermal efficiency is highly dependant on the house being airtight - to the point where efficiency scores are calculated by overpressuring the house (basically taping a huge fan into the front door with all other doors and windows shut) and measuring the pressure loss. When applying insulation, contractors have to meticulously use foam to seal everything up. It's a major part of the work when building a new house and just a few mistakes can seriously affect thermal performance.

Re: The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy infrastructure woes

#136
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gas to electricity efficiency is low so you loose more then half the energy when producing electricity from gas. Using a 90 percent efficiency furnace to heat water directly with gas is the better solution. Assuming your electricity comes from gas plants.

Heat pumps can have COPs above one so if your entire electrical grid was gas fired then youd need a COP of around 3 to break even which is doable. The grid is getting greener which means you win by even more if you electrify everything.

That's what I've seen. Heat pump water heaters cost about the same to run as gas units. And yes the advantage is they don't fundamentally use natural gas so they are 'green' as the grid they are tied to is.

Re: The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy infrastructure woes

#137
post #94
post #71

This is old technology, I'm surprised the US hasn't already implemented it. They have been remote-controlling water heaters in New Zealand and Australia since the 50s. Just a simple relay installed in each house that responses to extra frequencies on the power lines in the 160-1600hz range. It's called ripple control, for obvious reasons. Each home gets assigned to one of several channels in each area so they can hav…

About half of the US uses natural gas for water heating - its substantially more efficient than burning said gas (or coal) to generate electricity, then using the electricity to heat water.

A lot of people also use fuel oil for heating (I know we did growing up in a suburb without gas lines). Someone comes by occasionally and delivers it. I expect electric water heaters are very uncommon.

Re: The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy infrastructure woes

#138
I've proposed this (water heater as battery) innumerable times here on HN. Glad to see it finally catching on!

You can do the same thing with the HVAC system. For example, when the sun is high and electricity is cheap, have the A/C cooling a large mass of stone or concrete. Then, blow air over it at night to keep the house cool.

Re: The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy infrastructure woes

#139
post #108

Am I the only one that find this article incredibly confusing? It starts off talking about wanting to move energy production to renewable sources. Great, I'm with you so far. A major issue with renewable energy (solar and wind) is that they're variable, not constant. This results in uneven power. The wind doesn't blow, it's cloudy or it's night time. So we need a way to convert this variable renewable energy into con…

> The world needs a way to convert renewable energy into constant energy.

Not really or at least that represents a gross simplification of the situation.

Electricity demand is anything but constant - peak to trough intraday consumption can vary by up to a factor of 5. Grid engineering is all about matching lots of different sources with different generation characteristics with a varying (but quite predictable) demand curve.

All generation sources are intermittent - they are just intermittent in different ways. Solar and wind have well known limitations in this regard but at least the variation in output is predictable - particular solar, wind is typically accurately predictable up to a few weeks horizon.

The intermittency associated with thermal plants may be less in some ways but it has the disadvantage is that it is largely not predictable. For example, the average US coal plant will be unavailable for generation 15% of the time - so roughly 1 hour down for every 6 hours generating. Most of this 1 hour downtime is unscheduled/forced which is unpredictable. It's a myth that having a 1GW of fossil fuel generation capacity means you can reliability meet a peak demand of 1GW.

Also nuclear and coal are NOT good at load following - they operate most efficiently when producing the constant design output. Ramping up/down coal or nuclear output quickly is often not at all possible or is possible - depending on plant design - but with a large loss in efficiency and increased plant stresses and wear and tear.

Grid engineers have been maintaining this balancing act between unreliable generation and fluctuating demand for ever. In the past the focus was on coping with the intermittency caused by the failure modes of thermal plants. Increasingly now they are coping with the variable output of solar and wind generation but seem to be managing this - a bunch of European countries source more than 40% of their electricity from solar or wind and none required utility scale li-ion or have experienced increased grid instability.

The same tools are used to handle wind and solar intermittency as are used to handle thermal plant failure or inability to ramp up/down quickly - some hydro storage, backup idling natural gas plants, grid interconnections, etc.

Fundamentally the renewables revolution is happening quietly in the background is driven by simple economics. Coal and nuclear are just too expensive by a factor of 2 or 3 and natural gas, on-shore wind and utility scale solar are just so cheap in comparison. It's cheaper now to build a load of wind (or solar) and some backup natural gas generation - typically with a capacity factor of only 10% or so - than it is to meet demand with thermal fossil fuels. This is because wind and solar are capital intensive while NG plants are cheap to build but expensive to operate due to fuel costs. This combo (idling natural gas and wind and/or solar) is in the process of displacing everything else. 90% of the new generation capacity added in the US last year was of this nature. And a similar proportion is observed globally.

Meanwhile you have endless arguments about why wind and solar "cannot work" in fora, while all around the world it clearly IS working and analysis suggests it requires no technology breakthrough to get to 60%-70% carbon-free generation - many grids are well along this journey (40% to 50%) and none of the doomsday scenarios of massive load shedding, black-outs, etc. have occurred.

Re: The humble water heater could be the savior of our energy infrastructure woes

#140
bangs head on table

Energy efficiency/load redirection is not the same as energy storage.

Heat pumps water heaters, with good insulation is about 3-3.8 times more efficient than straight electric heating. However keeping hot water hanging around isn't all that efficient.

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