Chime has been suddenly closing accounts, not returning customers’ money • Hacker News Board

Re: Chime has been suddenly closing accounts, not returning customers’ money

#81

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jul 06, 2021, 9:56 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #67

wyager wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, not at all. I’m suggesting that the level of structural abstraction is a problem precisely because it prevents people from directing their rage where it actually matters.

Suppose your hypothetical was true, and whenever you had a grievance you would speak directly to an c-suite officer. What makes you think the corporate officer in question wouldn't take preventive measures to protect themselves from violence? Business in sketchy neighborhoods place their employees/cash register behind bulletproof glass to prevent this exact issue. If a small business can afford that kind of stuff to…

[deleted]

Re: Chime has been suddenly closing accounts, not returning customers’ money

#82

Post by mindslight » Tue, Jul 06, 2021, 9:56 PM UTC

41209 wrote: post #55

techsupporter wrote: post #14

> The sudden account closures have put financially vulnerable customers under stress. Of course they have. It's no accident that accounts like these are heavily marketed to people with terms like "faster access to YOUR money" and "virtually no fees" and "manage YOUR MONEY from anywhere, down to the penny!" These companies are targeting people for whom every single dollar is of vital importance. To then yank the accou…

To be fair, any bank can freeze your account for any reason. You can mitigate this somewhat by having accounts with multiple banks, but even then they can all be frozen at once. The benefit of a traditional bank is at least you can show up with an ID and beg for your money. Chime does indeed market to those who aren't financially doing great, but it's a very complicated situation. Everyone should have a minimum of 3…

The feature that has been lost was actually a property of writing checks. When you use a debit card, or use a website to make an online payment, you're ultimately asking permission and the bank is free to say "no" with little repercussion. Whereas if you write a check on your account, pass it to someone else, who passes it to their bank, who presents it to your bank, your bank wantonly dishonoring the check would result in a much larger fallout.

Push transactions also put the paying bank on the hook for whether the transaction was fraudulent or not. Whereas with a pull transaction, it is up to the receiving bank to clean up the mess from any fraud. This is why banks (especially smaller banks) will put daily limit on the ACH transfers you can initiate, but will process whatever externally-initiated ACHs land on your account.

Re: Chime has been suddenly closing accounts, not returning customers’ money

#83

Post by quesera » Tue, Jul 06, 2021, 9:58 PM UTC

wyager wrote: post #31

techsupporter wrote: post #14

> The sudden account closures have put financially vulnerable customers under stress. Of course they have. It's no accident that accounts like these are heavily marketed to people with terms like "faster access to YOUR money" and "virtually no fees" and "manage YOUR MONEY from anywhere, down to the penny!" These companies are targeting people for whom every single dollar is of vital importance. To then yank the accou…

With regard to “automated customer handling” (I.e. intentionally wasting customers’ time and energy in the hope they give up) - I can’t help but feel that society has lost a critical social regulatory mechanism, in the form of being able to physically beat up people who repeatedly exhibit scummy behavior. If some airline or bank puts you on hold for 4 hours, there’s no way to throw a few punches or whatever at the pe…

> society has lost a critical social regulatory mechanism, in the form of being able to physically beat up people who repeatedly exhibit scummy behavior

Wow, that's the most poorly-thought out idea I've read in recent memory.

A few more seconds of consideration should be enough to come up with all the reasons this is such a terrible idea.

But one that I can contribute from a slightly unusual perspective (working adjacent to financial fraud detection):

The aggrieved customer is very often completely wrong about whom to blame for a problem. They are working with incomplete information (we all are), they're in a heightened state of stress (money is at risk), they're grappling with bad models of confusing systems (finance is complicated), and at least half of them are less smart than average (by definition).

I would say that about 10% of customer service requests start out hostile and accusatory. Some are literally threatening violence. And about 99% of the time, the aggressive customer is wrong.

So how many innocent noses do you think should be improperly punched, for your social regulatory mechanism instincts to be satisfied?

Re: Chime has been suddenly closing accounts, not returning customers’ money

#84

Post by otterley » Tue, Jul 06, 2021, 9:58 PM UTC

astrange wrote: post #75

otterley wrote: post #13

This is a good reminder that the best way to get your money back from an institution that is unfairly keeping it from you is either to file suit (in CA, you can sue for up to $10,000 in small-claims court), or hire an attorney. Self-help and complaining online rarely works. Phone calls work even less.

Hiring an attorney is a good way to not have any money since you used it to pay the attorney. (And you have to find one - for some reason there's a phrase "my lawyer" but what kind of person "has a lawyer" and why would that lawyer know how to do everything?) Just file a CFPB complaint: https://www.consumerfinance.gov

> Just file a CFPB complaint: https://www.consumerfinance.gov

"Just " is considered facile and sometimes rude, if not harmful; it implies that things are easier and/or more effective than they actually are. (The CFPB does not represent you personally, and is not obligated to act on your behalf, unlike an attorney.)

> Hiring an attorney is a good way to not have any money since you used it to pay the attorney

It depends on how much money is on the line. Many small-claims courts don't even let you have an attorney, and the filing fees are small and the effort to file is minimal. On the other hand, if there's a lot of money at stake, having an attorney can pay off.

And there's always somewhere in between: having an attorney send a demand letter can sometimes yield good results, without necessarily breaking the bank. Getting an attorney involved doesn't necessarily imply that you're going all the way to trial and judgment.

> And you have to find one

You also sometimes have to find a plumber when a pipe springs a leak... Life isn't perfect, and that's why these people exist.

Re: Chime has been suddenly closing accounts, not returning customers’ money

#85

Post by ericlewis » Tue, Jul 06, 2021, 9:58 PM UTC

mkmk wrote: post #25

silisili wrote: post #9

I don't see how anyone can take Chime seriously. I have a habit of checking out most new free banking apps, looking for the best deals, UI, security, etc. Chime immediately started sending my phone notifications with tons of emojis in them. It felt completely childish and I couldn't believe this was a legitimate company that people would put tons of money into.

Isn’t that just a generational thing? Presumably this is an intentional communication choice designed to appeal to younger users. So, even though it doesn’t match your own preferred communication style, it could actually be seen as a sign of competence in knowing one’s target market and how to best reach them.

that was indeed our theory too

Re: Chime has been suddenly closing accounts, not returning customers’ money

#86

Post by plttn » Tue, Jul 06, 2021, 9:59 PM UTC

ericlewis wrote: post #24

Ex-employee of chime here, joined early on (think first 10 employees) and spent half a decade working there. I can guess as to what is going on here. I am not sure if my NDA still covers me talking about stuff there, but most likely is what has happened was folks either: not using their accounts (this will trigger eventual closer) or legitimately engaging in practices that would be... improper in any banking system.…

As someone sitting kinda on the outside of fintech/finance, it just feels like there's a lot less value add and market oversaturation these days from "hipster app with Bancorp account".

I previously had Simple (rest in peace), and was totally okay with it, but it clearly wasn't worth it to BBVA/PNC. I went to SoFi just because they're making moves to get their own charter, rather than sitting with Bancorp.

Now you've got Robinhood, Credit Karma, Chime, etc etc all running Bancorp backing accounts so really there's no fundamental difference between any of them.

Re: Chime has been suddenly closing accounts, not returning customers’ money

#87

Post by ericlewis » Tue, Jul 06, 2021, 10:03 PM UTC

plttn wrote: post #86

ericlewis wrote: post #24

Ex-employee of chime here, joined early on (think first 10 employees) and spent half a decade working there. I can guess as to what is going on here. I am not sure if my NDA still covers me talking about stuff there, but most likely is what has happened was folks either: not using their accounts (this will trigger eventual closer) or legitimately engaging in practices that would be... improper in any banking system.…

As someone sitting kinda on the outside of fintech/finance, it just feels like there's a lot less value add and market oversaturation these days from "hipster app with Bancorp account". I previously had Simple (rest in peace), and was totally okay with it, but it clearly wasn't worth it to BBVA/PNC. I went to SoFi just because they're making moves to get their own charter, rather than sitting with Bancorp. Now you've…

I can't really talk about it, but that charter things is... in their minds

Re: Chime has been suddenly closing accounts, not returning customers’ money

#88

Post by __david__ » Tue, Jul 06, 2021, 10:05 PM UTC

silisili wrote: post #9

I don't see how anyone can take Chime seriously. I have a habit of checking out most new free banking apps, looking for the best deals, UI, security, etc. Chime immediately started sending my phone notifications with tons of emojis in them. It felt completely childish and I couldn't believe this was a legitimate company that people would put tons of money into.

That seems like an incredibly petty thing to be bothered by. I really hate the idea that companies have to act in some fake capital P Professional way for people to take them seriously. I really don't care if my bank (or whatever) wants to exude personality. It just means they don't have some boring, gatekeeping PR flack in charge…

Re: Chime has been suddenly closing accounts, not returning customers’ money

#89

Post by wyager » Tue, Jul 06, 2021, 10:09 PM UTC

quesera wrote: post #83

wyager wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With regard to “automated customer handling” (I.e. intentionally wasting customers’ time and energy in the hope they give up) - I can’t help but feel that society has lost a critical social regulatory mechanism, in the form of being able to physically beat up people who repeatedly exhibit scummy behavior. If some airline or bank puts you on hold for 4 hours, there’s no way to throw a few punches or whatever at the pe…

> society has lost a critical social regulatory mechanism, in the form of being able to physically beat up people who repeatedly exhibit scummy behavior Wow, that's the most poorly-thought out idea I've read in recent memory. A few more seconds of consideration should be enough to come up with all the reasons this is such a terrible idea. But one that I can contribute from a slightly unusual perspective (working adja…

I'm obviously not proposing it as a solution - just pointing out that this used to be part of the social regulatory calculus and now it's gone.

Re: Chime has been suddenly closing accounts, not returning customers’ money

#90

Post by mindslight » Tue, Jul 06, 2021, 10:10 PM UTC

syshum wrote: post #39

techsupporter wrote: post #14

> The sudden account closures have put financially vulnerable customers under stress. Of course they have. It's no accident that accounts like these are heavily marketed to people with terms like "faster access to YOUR money" and "virtually no fees" and "manage YOUR MONEY from anywhere, down to the penny!" These companies are targeting people for whom every single dollar is of vital importance. To then yank the accou…

People like this should be using credit unions, not banks. Credit Unions where created to service customers that would not profitable for a normal bank, many decades ago I was one of those customers... Still today, even though my financial situation is far better, refuse to put any of my money in bank after the treatment I received from them. I have been with my current credit union for 20+ years, I love them, every…

While there seems to be a correlation where credit unions have better service, it's not a hard rule. Small local banks can also be friendly and responsive.

The key is to avoid large companies where your call will be "placed in a bucket of stomach fluid", and even worse, when you visit the branch the person trying to help you will be at the mercy of the same exact customer service line.

I'm glad you found a smaller business to trust.