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European Parliament approves mass surveillance of private communication

patrick-breyer.de

101–110 of 434 posts

Re: European Parliament approves mass surveillance of private communication

#101
post #67

This is what people mean when they say “turnkey surveillance states”: you end up 1-3 laws away from almost instant total government surveillance of all citizen activity. The trillion dollar infrastructure was built by you and me for free from their POV (we paid them to do it with taxes), and now they can just say they want to use it

So what do we do?

Well you can do what we did in the UK: the non apathetic portion of propagandised society collectively decided to exit the EU backed by some dubious political and financial motives, immediately followed by slow deregulation and privatisation of everything while embracing corruption and nepotism.

So you can live in a rising socialist surveillance dystopia or robocop style capitalist dystopia. It's political hysteresis and the only thing that reverses it is war.

Re: European Parliament approves mass surveillance of private communication

#102

You do have to wonder about the long term stability of a nominal democracy where 72% of citizens oppose digital monitoring, while 77% of their representatives vote for laws they emphatically do not want. Put more bluntly, is this even a democracy in anything other than the trappings?

A discussion I've never really seen take place is, "Why does law enforcement have a (prominent) seat at the table for which laws should be passed?"

We in the US continually hear from the FBI and other agencies how they need to abridge rights in order to be more effective. IMO, that really shouldn't be in their wheelhouse. They should be enforcing only laws that exist. Making new laws for their convenience should be none of their business. If they are hamstrung by some pesky civil rights, tough.

I'm sure there may exist counterexamples, but I can't think of where an agency has advocated in favor of more personal protections.

Re: European Parliament approves mass surveillance of private communication

#103
Full name list

ECR: Bourgeois, Jurzyca, Kanko, Melbārde, Terheş, Van Overtveldt, Zīle

NI: Beghin, Buschmann, Castaldo, Comín i Oliveres, Ferrara, Furore, Gemma, Giarrusso, Gyöngyösi, Pignedoli, Ponsatí Obiols, Puigdemont i Casamajó, Regimenti, Rondinelli, Rookmaker, Sinčić, Sonneborn, Vuolo

PPE: Adamowicz, Ademov, Adinolfi Isabella, Alexandrov Yordanov, Amaro, Arias Echeverría, Arimont, Arłukowicz, Asimakopoulou, Băsescu, Bellamy, Benjumea Benjumea, Bentele, Berendsen, Berger, Berlusconi, Bernhuber, Bilčík, Blaga, Bogdan, Bogovič, Buda, Buşoi, Caroppo, Carvalho, Casa, Caspary, del Castillo Vera, Christoforou, Clune, Colin-Oesterlé, van Dalen, Danjean, De Meo, Didier, Doleschal, Dorfmann, Duda, Düpont, Ehler, Estaràs Ferragut, Evren, Falcă, Ferber, Fernandes, Fitzgerald, Fourlas, Frankowski, Gahler, García-Margallo y Marfil, Geuking, Gieseke, Glavak, González Pons, Halicki, Hansen, Hava, Herbst, Hetman, Hohlmeier, Hölvényi, Hortefeux, Hübner, Jahr, Jarubas, Juknevičienė, Kalinowski, Kalniete, Kanev, Karas, Kefalogiannis, Kelly, Kopacz, Kovatchev, Kubilius, Kympouropoulos, Kyrtsos, de Lange, Lega, Lenaers, Lewandowski, Lexmann, Liese, Lins, López Gil, López-Istúriz White, Łukacijewska, Lutgen, McAllister, Maldeikienė, Manders, Mandl, Marinescu, Markey, Martusciello, Mato, Maydell, Mažylis, Meimarakis, Melo, Metsola, Millán Mon, Monteiro de Aguiar, Montserrat, Morano, Mortler, Motreanu, Mureşan, Niebler, Niedermayer, Nistor, Novak, Novakov, Ochojska, Olbrycht, Patriciello, Pereira Lídia, Pieper, Pietikäinen, Polčák, Polfjärd, Pollák, Pospíšil, Radev, Radtke, Rangel, Ressler, Sagartz, Salini, Sander, Sarvamaa, Schmiedtbauer, Schneider, Schreijer-Pierik, Schulze, Schwab, Seekatz, Sikorski, Simon, Skyttedal, Šojdrová, Sokol, Spyraki, Štefanec, Tajani, Terras, Thaler, Thun und Hohenstein, Tobé, Tomac, Tomc, Vaidere, Vandenkendelaere, Verheyen, Vincze, Virkkunen, Voss, Vozemberg-Vrionidi, Walsh, Walsmann, Warborn, Weber, Weiss, Wieland, Wiezik, Winkler, Winzig, Wiseler-Lima, Zagorakis, Zarzalejos, Zdechovský, Zoido Álvarez, Zovko, Zver

Renew: Alieva-Veli, Al-Sahlani, Andrews, Ansip, Auštrevičius, Azmani, Bauzá Díaz, Beer, Bijoux, Bilbao Barandica, Botoş, Boyer, Brunet, Cañas, Canfin, Chabaud, Charanzová, Chastel, Christensen, Cicurel, Cioloş, Cseh, Danti, Decerle, Dlabajová, Donáth, Durand, Ďuriš Nicholsonová, Eroglu, Farreng, Flego, Gade, Gamon, Garicano, Gheorghe, Glück, Goerens, Gozi, Groothuis, Grošelj, Grudler, Guetta, Hahn Svenja, Hayer, Hlaváček, Hojsík, Huitema, Ijabs, in 't Veld, Joveva, Karleskind, Karlsbro, Katainen, Kelleher, Keller Fabienne, Knotek, Körner, Kovařík, Kyuchyuk, Loiseau, Løkkegaard, Melchior, Mihaylova, Mituța, Müller, Nagtegaal, Nart, Oetjen, Paet, Pagazaurtundúa, Pekkarinen, Petersen, Pîslaru, Rafaela, Ries, Riquet, Rodríguez Ramos, Schreinemacher, Séjourné, Semedo, Šimečka, Solís Pérez, Ştefănuță, Strugariu, Søgaard-Lidell, Tolleret, Toom, Torvalds, Trillet-Lenoir, Tudorache, Vautmans, Vedrenne, Verhofstadt, Vázquez Lázara, Wiesner, Yon-Courtin, Zacharopoulou, Zullo

S&D: Agius Saliba, Aguilera, Ameriks, Andrieu, Androulakis, Angel, Ara-Kovács, Arena, Avram, Balt, Barley, Bartolo, Belka, Benea, Benifei, Beňová, Bergkvist, Biedroń, Bischoff, Blinkevičiūtė, Bonafè, Borzan, Brglez, Bullmann, Burkhardt, Calenda, Carvalhais, Cerdas, Chahim, Chinnici, Cimoszewicz, Ciuhodaru, Číž, Cozzolino, Crețu, Cutajar, Danielsson, De Castro, Dobrev, Durá Ferrandis, Engerer, Ertug, Fajon, Fernández, Ferrandino, Fritzon, Fuglsang, Gálvez Muñoz, García Del Blanco, García Muñoz, García Pérez, Gardiazabal Rubial, Gebhardt, Geier, Glucksmann, González, González Casares, Grapini, Gualmini, Guillaume, Guteland, Hajšel, Heide, Heinäluoma, Homs Ginel, Hristov, Incir, Jerković, Jongerius, Kaili, Kaljurand, Kammerevert, Kohut, Köster, Krehl, Kumpula-Natri, Lalucq, Lange, Larrouturou, Leitão-Marques, López, López Aguilar, Luena, Maestre Martín De Almagro, Majorino, Maldonado López, Marques Margarida, Marques Pedro, Matić, Mavrides, Maxová, Mebarek, Mikser, Miller, Molnár, Moreno Sánchez, Moretti, Negrescu, Neuser, Nica, Noichl, Olekas, Papadakis Demetris, Penkova, Picierno, Picula, Pisapia, Pizarro, Plumb, Regner, Reuten, Roberti, Rodríguez-Piñero, Rónai, Ros Sempere, Ruiz Devesa, Sánchez Amor, Sant, Santos, Schaldemose, Schieder, Schuster, Sidl, Silva Pereira, Sippel, Smeriglio, Stanishev, Tang, Tarabella, Tax, Tinagli, Toia, Tudose, Ujhelyi, Ušakovs, Van Brempt, Vind, Vitanov, Vollath, Wölken, Wolters, Yoncheva, Zorrinho

The Left: Arvanitis, Aubry, Barrena Arza, Björk, Bompard, Botenga, Chaibi, Daly, Demirel, Ernst, Flanagan, Georgoulis, Gusmão, Hazekamp, Kokkalis, Konečná, Kouloglou, Kountoura, MacManus, Matias, Maurel, Michels, Modig, Omarjee, Papadimoulis, Pelletier, Pineda, Rego, Rodríguez Palop, Schirdewan, Scholz, Urbán Crespo, Villanueva Ruiz, Villumsen, Wallace

Verts/ALE: Alametsä, Alfonsi, Andresen, Auken, Biteau, Bloss, Boeselager, Breyer, Bricmont, Carême, Cavazzini, Cormand, Corrao, Cuffe, Dalunde, D'Amato, Delbos-Corfield, Delli, Deparnay-Grunenberg, Eickhout, Evi, Franz, Freund, Geese, Giegold, Gregorová, Gruffat, Guerreiro, Hahn Henrike, Häusling, Hautala, Herzberger-Fofana, Holmgren, Jadot, Keller Ska, Kolaja, Kuhnke, Lagodinsky, Lamberts, Langensiepen, Marquardt, Matthieu, Metz, Neumann, Nienaß, Niinistö, O'Sullivan, Paulus, Pedicini, Peksa, Peter-Hansen, Reintke, Riba i Giner, Ripa, Rivasi, Roose, Ropė, Satouri, Semsrott, Solé, Spurek, Strik, Toussaint, Urtasun, Vana, Van Sparrentak, Von Cramon-Taubadel, Waitz, Wiener, Yenbou, Ždanoka

Re: European Parliament approves mass surveillance of private communication

#104
post #75
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what do we do?

Use GPG. Don't use smartphones, don't use any closed software (especially non-free OSes.) Vote.

Unfortunately that's a non-starter for most people who value utility over privacy. Education is key, but there's little interest in that as well.

Re: European Parliament approves mass surveillance of private communication

#105
post #30
post #10

Would any email provider protect me from this, get my emails actually delivered and ideally work with my own domain? Not that I see myself switching after 15 years and 6 Gmail accounts but if I am to I'd rather know who I'd use. And no I won't risk setting it up myself and risk missing on some portion of my emails like I've had happen at workplaces before we'd sigh and switch to Google. For Chat tg/signal seem like t…

> For Chat tg/signal seem like they would but I am less sure what the best option is for email. Something that doesn't store the chats in a decryptable form on their servers is probably preferrable. So Telegram out and Signal, Threema or WhatsApp in.

Telegram supports E2E encrypted secret chats.

https://telegram.org/faq#q-how-are-secret-chats-different

Re: European Parliament approves mass surveillance of private communication

#106
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but how sustainable is the EU really, in the long term? I’m still convinced it will either dissolve or devolve into a rump organization within my lifetime.

EU gets a lot of stick but deep below, the boring stuff keeps it together. Brexit showed just the enormous depth of high quality glue keeping all remaining countries together. So I don’t think the EU will be collapsing any time soon, certainly not for rational reasons.

You are right, the Stasi would be so proud of what Europe is about to become.

Re: European Parliament approves mass surveillance of private communication

#107

This sounds insane. Everybody that voted for this needs to lose their seat.

It is a "think of the children" law, the last time the European Commission pushed a law under that reasoning it turned out they were targeting mainly political activists. Back then the super secret list of child porn sites they cited as impossible to take down through sane means contained two things: child porn sites that were taken down within 24 hours of the list becoming public and the sites of political activists. There is no way in hell any of the politicians that voted yes on this law thought of children when they did, at least not in a socially acceptable way.

Re: European Parliament approves mass surveillance of private communication

#108

You do have to wonder about the long term stability of a nominal democracy where 72% of citizens oppose digital monitoring, while 77% of their representatives vote for laws they emphatically do not want. Put more bluntly, is this even a democracy in anything other than the trappings?

How is it not a democracy? It is representative, sure, but it is still more democratic than many other nominal democracies which do not even have proportional representation.

Perhaps people just do not consider this an important issue, and do not factor it in to how they choose their representatives very much?

What do you suggest as the alternative? Direct democracy? Anarchy?

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ziq-do-anarchists-su...

Re: European Parliament approves mass surveillance of private communication

#110
post #68

Maybe brexit has it right - Europe isn't a good place to be a member of.

UK already has crazy laws around this. Brexit enabled more invasive laws to be implemented.

As somebody who was somewhat in-favour of Brexit (not popular here, admittedly), my view is that it's easier to fight for privacy against just the UK government, rather than the entire EU bloc. I think if an entity as powerful as the EU puts this into legislation, it's game over.

I have a similar view on federal laws in the United States - they don't tend to repeal federal surveillance laws without violence.

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