Why I will never pursue cheating again • Hacker News Board

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#281

Post by MartinCron » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 6:56 AM UTC

endgame wrote: post #91

OstiaAntica wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is violating honor, the honor of the institution and everyone who is sacrificing their time and treasure to advance your education. The rules governing cheating are even sometimes called "Honor Codes". Finally, from a Christian perspective, putting your name on work you did not complete is a form of lying and is immoral.

I really hope that the downvotes aren't from people who dislike this poster's Christian perspective. I suspect that the HN majority is atheist, but it's still no excuse.

I suspect that the HN majority is atheist

Really? I get a sense that there's some outspoken atheists here, but I don't see it as a majority.

I guess that would make an interesting poll.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#282

Post by nostrademons » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 6:57 AM UTC

mentat wrote: post #276

nostrademons wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree in general, but remember that we're talking about an MBA program here. Just what "value" is there to be created sitting in class? The point of schooling is to develop the skills that will help you in the real world. Hard work is one of those skills; it's not outside the realm of plausibility that schools should incent it. (FWIW, cheating - when you don't get caught - is another one of them. Maybe schools shou…

Though I certainly can't speak with authority about what might constitute value in an MBA program, I would think it would be the ability to understand systems and their organization and to think creatively about solutions to complex problems. I'm probably wildly optimistic.

From what I've heard from friends and coworkers who've gone to HBS - the value of the MBA is almost entirely in the network, in getting to know all the other folks who also got into Harvard. (This is perhaps a little bit less valuable at NYU, but the general principle still applies.) Logically, therefore, if you want to maximize value as an MBA program, you should have your students party all day. Which may not be all that far from the current truth.

The classroom aspects of the MBA have been uniformly criticized by the people I know that've gone through them, except for the few idiots who believe every business situation is like a case study and then run their businesses into the ground basing decisions on that. Business is just too complex to reduce to classroom principles. I think Marc Andreesen once wrote on his blog that at the time the executive makes the decision that an HBS case study will eventually be based upon, he has less than 10% of the information that the students who will eventually be critiquing him have.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#283

Post by bluedanieru » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 7:08 AM UTC

mentat wrote: post #223

nyustern wrote: post #189

Hi Panos. I was actually a student in your class last fall semester. To alleviate any doubt you may have, the class was known as “Info Tech,” and you had two sessions on Mondays and Wednesdays (2-3:15, 3:30-4:45 pm) in KMEC. Now I have a couple of problems with your post. Firstly, you attribute your lower evaluation rating of 5.3 for last fall semester solely to your lower tolerance of cheating. However, there is som…

"who put in the most effort and demonstrate the highest level of achievement" I've noticed a growing problem with people equating effort with achievement as the parent does. Just because one "works really hard" doesn't mean that one creates something of value. I'm not sure where this belief arose from, but it doesn't apply in school and it certainly doesn't apply in life.

I don't think he's conflating effort with achievement, rather actually doing the work, with earning the grade he got, or rather not getting the grade he should have.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#284

Post by Groxx » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 7:12 AM UTC

sliverstorm wrote: post #261

badclient wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think being pissed at 28/108 students is a valid excuse for acting pissed at everyone. That is a major professional flaw and a post on how you plan to control your emotion may be appreciated by future students. I have had professors that had me write huge essays and then proceeded to just put a huge ass check and never really read past the first paragraph. If I plagiarized and cited my frustration with all th…

Imagine yourself living in a small colony of 109 individuals, 108 plus yourself. At least 25%, or one in four, want to kill you, and you don't know who they are. Would you act friendly, trusting, kind and natural around everyone because up to 75% of them do not deserve your fear and suspicion? It is perhaps a bit of an extreme thought experiment, but I think it illustrates handily how the human mind reacts in this ki…

In non-life-or-death situations, people endure quite a large amount of discomfort to achieve other goals. But a high-enough level of discomfort kills people. Does this mean the ones enduring small amounts are irrational?

Reducto-ad-absurdum is a proof only when it takes into account everything in the argument. In life-or-death examples, other normally-included portions are dropped, making the argument something else entirely. It's just a straw-man attempt, not a valid point.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#285

Post by maurycy » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 7:16 AM UTC

It makes sense as long as he not published it.

Why? The university should not pursue cheating. It hurts the credibility. All the teachers do so. On your own, it makes no sense to waste your time, others will take care of. Once announced, the news spreads and everyone losses.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#286

Post by v413 » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 7:22 AM UTC

lucisferre wrote: post #221

nyustern wrote: post #189

Hi Panos. I was actually a student in your class last fall semester. To alleviate any doubt you may have, the class was known as “Info Tech,” and you had two sessions on Mondays and Wednesdays (2-3:15, 3:30-4:45 pm) in KMEC. Now I have a couple of problems with your post. Firstly, you attribute your lower evaluation rating of 5.3 for last fall semester solely to your lower tolerance of cheating. However, there is som…

Speaking from personal experience (both as a student and a TA) nothing is worse than ECE professors for bad teaching or ECE students for cheating, neither aspect of this scenario really surprise me. I think it is sad but telling that the author gave up so quickly on what is (as the OP pointed out) the basic expectations of his job, but it is also telling about the overall quality and current state of ECE departments…

Please read the whole article first and then post here. You will see that this teacher actually comes with a reasonable solution to the problem (described at the end of his article). Please don't post without RTFA.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#287

Post by nekitamo » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 7:28 AM UTC

Computer science undergrad here, final year in a very nice public university. For a long time now I've observed how business majors (my roommates) go on unpunished for years of blatant cheating. It has made me completely lose faith in the system. In computer science, cheating is not such a simple proposition. Our university CS department has a no-bullshit cheating policy: first offense results in failing grade, suspension for one semester, and mark on your transcript. Second offense results in expulsion from the school of Computer Science. I've seen this punishment applied in person many times; I know the dean isn't bluffing when he says he'll do it. Also, the school CS department uses a modified version of MOSS: http://theory.stanford.edu/~aiken/moss/

to detect the cheating. Maybe you can circumvent it if you're smart enough. Personally I have better things to do with my time.

Business majors, on the other hand, already have a reputation as the "bullshit major". You curriculum is a joke. You study for exams the day before. You party on finals week while the rest of us study. It's the major you go to when you want the easy ticket through life. And the blatant cheating they get away with just serves to rub it in the face of all the majors who actually have to gasp work for their degree.

More reading here: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/education/edlife/edl-17bus...

When my roommates are done with college, they'll be screwed. I'm not disputing that. They have a degree that won't be worth the paper it's printed on, in a heavily oversubscribed major (25% of all US undergrads are business majors), with no marketable skills, and a tendency towards laziness and dishonesty.

Why do Business schools let this kind of stuff go on? I've talked to people in other schools, hell even business majors themselves, and they all acknowledge it. Don't people realize that they're just screwing themselves over in the long-term while accumulating the animosity and disdain of their peers? It's crazy, self-destructive, sad, wasteful, and it's ruining lives.

The entire system is broken. Cheating is just a symptom.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#288

Post by sliverstorm » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 7:36 AM UTC

Groxx wrote: post #284

sliverstorm wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine yourself living in a small colony of 109 individuals, 108 plus yourself. At least 25%, or one in four, want to kill you, and you don't know who they are. Would you act friendly, trusting, kind and natural around everyone because up to 75% of them do not deserve your fear and suspicion? It is perhaps a bit of an extreme thought experiment, but I think it illustrates handily how the human mind reacts in this ki…

In non-life-or-death situations, people endure quite a large amount of discomfort to achieve other goals. But a high-enough level of discomfort kills people. Does this mean the ones enduring small amounts are irrational? Reducto-ad-absurdum is a proof only when it takes into account everything in the argument. In life-or-death examples, other normally-included portions are dropped, making the argument something else…

It's not a straw-man. I have attempted to refute nothing. I was merely asking my parent to consider how he might behave in such a situation.

I used a different situation, it is true, but only because I have found being on the instructional end of cheating feels very different than you might imagine, so I guessed my parent was not familiar with it.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#289

Post by btilly » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 7:38 AM UTC

detst wrote: post #277

btilly wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand why the students cheat. However it is possible to be in their positions and not cheat. I don't want to have co-workers who cheat. I therefore would like to see the book thrown at them so that they learn not to cheat. If they truly had no choice about cheating, then I'd show more sympathy. But they do. By contrast we truly don't get to choose how we as humans are emotionally wired.

> By contrast we truly don't get to choose how we as humans are emotionally wired. What a lame excuse. He still had as much of a choice in being a dick as the students had in cheating. Even under his own account of the office-hours incident, he was very inconsiderate and doesn't seem to understand it. If you have office hours, know there will be many students showing up on this particular day, and yet you aren't prep…

If you look at any of us during snapshots of our worst moments, you'll find a lot to criticize. If you are caught on the spot, you seldom make the response you wish.

The fact that the professor remembered that specific incident strongly suggests that this was one of those moments that he'd like to have over. The fact that he has come up with a strategy to avoid the problem suggests that there will be future improvement. I see a lot to applaud here.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#290

Post by btilly » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 7:44 AM UTC

badclient wrote: post #279

btilly wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand why the students cheat. However it is possible to be in their positions and not cheat. I don't want to have co-workers who cheat. I therefore would like to see the book thrown at them so that they learn not to cheat. If they truly had no choice about cheating, then I'd show more sympathy. But they do. By contrast we truly don't get to choose how we as humans are emotionally wired.

Likewise, I know professors who under similar situation do not react like the professor in this discussion. Also I don't understand why the same emotional wiring that can explain the professor's behavior cannot potentially explain the cheating student's behavior?

How so a similar situation?

You have known many professors who are going through reporting a fifth of their class to the deans for cheating? You know how they feel and act during that event? Really?

I firmly disbelieve. I spent 9 years in a university setting, knew a lot of professors, and I personally knew exactly nobody who went through that. And from what I know of human nature, and the likely emotions that someone in that position would feel, I very strongly suspect that your judgement of how they would react is completely wrong.