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Why I will never pursue cheating again

behind-the-enemy-lines.blogspot.com

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Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#171
post #131
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It amazes me that you cannot see it from his perspective. He tried to catch cheaters and was punished by the school system for it. He earned less money for trying to enforce a no cheating policy. Would you work twice the amount of time for less pay? Most of us probably wouldn't. It seems like a prudent financial decision for him. The problem seems systemic, he throws his hands in the air and gives up because he canno…

He earned less money for trying to enforce a no cheating policy. No, his pay was increased by less than in previous years. He didn't actually earn less. Would you work twice the amount of time for less pay? He didn't work twice the time. 32 lecture hours is an indicator of the workload - he spends far more on the course than just contact hours. The problem seems systemic, he throws his hands in the air and gives up b…

his pay was increased by less than in previous years. He didn't actually earn less.

If his pay increase was less than inflation, then many people would say he did actually earn less.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#172
post #145

This professor is a huge part of the problem. He's a tenured professor saying "caring about cheating is counter productive", which to me says "I would rather have an easy life where I don't have to work hard than to protect the reputation of the institution I work for and ensure that students that graduate have learned something along the way". He complains he had to work almost 44 hours (2 hours * 22 cheaters) and r…

Justin, I am the professor who wrote the article. The 44 hours is not a number to show how much extra I had to work. Believe me, a 14-hour day is a pretty common thing for me. Teaching is only part of my overall job (I also have to do research, supervise PhD students, review papers, serve on committees and many other things). The 44 hours figure is given just as a contrast to the actual time that I spent in class. I…

I realize you are trying to maximize the quality of education you are providing. I don't think you can use that as an argument against failing students who blatantly cheat.

There's not an easy solution, obviously. You are taking a risk when you do something that some other members of your faculty are not doing. You must realize, they are threatened by your attempt to prevent cheating, because it will become obvious very quickly when you find such high rates of cheating and deal with them appropriately, that they are not doing so. That will raise difficult questions, deans will notice. I think you might find, to your surprise, that there are many other people in the same position as you, but perhaps not as bold as you are. I would wager that that many, many other faculty members hate cheating as much as you, and are disgusted by the blatant plagiarism, but also like you are pressured by the current state of affairs to bury it.

I would encourage you to stick to your original guns, and keep grinding cheaters out of your class. First of all, your reputation will be established very quickly among students. Students who know they have to cheat will avoid you every semester, saddling other professors who are softer on cheating with worse students, and concentrating the best students into your classes. More to the point, students won't try to cheat in your class nearly as much once your reputation is established, so the amount of time you have to deal with it will, I suspect, go down dramatically.

Edit: This is way more congenial than how I actually feel. It's your responsibility, and every other faculty member's, to identify cheating and run those students out of the university. They are stealing from the students who are trying hard and mastering the material, by graduating uneducated and unprepared. When they go out and embarrass themselves, it reflects on every other student with that same university's name on their diploma.

As for the girl crying for 2 hours, who cares? Let her cheating ass go cry in her dorm, I think you have very weird priorities to let her waste your entire office hours (with honest students waiting) with her obvious, transparent attempt to manipulate you emotionally.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#173
post #137
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can sympathize with him, as it seems he actually loses money if his student evaluations aren't high enough. The fault would then lie with the institution that doesn't properly asses the teaching prowess of a professor.

He doesn't lose money, he gets a smaller raise.

Semantics. He didn't get money that he would have received otherwise. I think it's fair to say he lost money.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#174

Welcome to the future where the stupid with "credentials" will be ruling you. While you're busy doing actual work, building something, they're building networks of support in your employer's structure to enable them to rise. So when you explain something to them and get a blank look or questions that make it clear they haven't understood anything, you'll know why. But hey, they have a Business Degree. They win, not y…

Median base salary for a Stern school graduate is only $60K: http://www.businessweek.com/bschools/rankings/undergraduate_... I made more than that straight out of college, and now make much more than that. So no, they didn't win. Technical skills pay if you're good at them.

On Wall Street it's common to have a $60k base and make your "real" money which may be 7-figures in bonuses.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#175

This professor is a huge part of the problem. He's a tenured professor saying "caring about cheating is counter productive", which to me says "I would rather have an easy life where I don't have to work hard than to protect the reputation of the institution I work for and ensure that students that graduate have learned something along the way". He complains he had to work almost 44 hours (2 hours * 22 cheaters) and r…

I saw your comment before it was edited and calling someone to the carpet (in your case by calling him a coward) isn't the kind of name-calling that should be frowned upon here. He is a coward. He comes out and plainly says that it's in his best interest to go along with the incentive structure in front of him instead of standing up for academic integrity.

Let's not let the cultural politeness here get in the way of calling it like it is. "Coward" may be a strong word, but it sometimes does apply.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#176
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Median base salary for a Stern school graduate is only $60K: http://www.businessweek.com/bschools/rankings/undergraduate_... I made more than that straight out of college, and now make much more than that. So no, they didn't win. Technical skills pay if you're good at them.

On Wall Street it's common to have a $60k base and make your "real" money which may be 7-figures in bonuses.

Yeah, that's true, but in Silicon Valley it's common to have a $60K base (actually more like $100K, but Wall Street is really more like $80-90K) and then make your "real" money as 7-8 figures of equity.

If you're going to look at the top of the financial industry (who are probably not NYU students, sorry), you've got to compare them to the top of the tech industry, the guys who found successful startups.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#177
post #175

This professor is a huge part of the problem. He's a tenured professor saying "caring about cheating is counter productive", which to me says "I would rather have an easy life where I don't have to work hard than to protect the reputation of the institution I work for and ensure that students that graduate have learned something along the way". He complains he had to work almost 44 hours (2 hours * 22 cheaters) and r…

I saw your comment before it was edited and calling someone to the carpet (in your case by calling him a coward) isn't the kind of name-calling that should be frowned upon here. He is a coward. He comes out and plainly says that it's in his best interest to go along with the incentive structure in front of him instead of standing up for academic integrity. Let's not let the cultural politeness here get in the way of…

The man has a job. The job states that he will be rewarded based upon customer feedback. If you have a problem with universities who measure their professors by popularity, then take it up with them.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You already have a copyright just by writing it. Courts have ruled this is fair use, which means the courts feel this use of content is more valuable to society than writers keeping their rights. I wonder if laws would change if we were talking about combatting plagiarism in film schools by keeping a database of all films to match against.

If it's fair use, the student keeps copyright, they just can't go after Turnitin etc. for copyright infringement. Lack of infringement != losing copyright. If the professor were to, say, publish an anthology of student papers, this would not be fair use and he'd have to either get permission or risk being sued by the students. There're various other cases of fair use that make this fairly obvious, eg. when you DVR a…

Yeah, my comment was unclear. I didn't mean to imply the students lost their rights, just that the courts have decided this particular use supersedes their rights under the fair use doctrine.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#179
post #160
post #61

This is fascinating, aside from one huge, glaring bit of stupidness on the authors part - highlighted here: "One interesting observation: Almost all cheating happened within ethnic lines. Koreans copy from Koreans. Indians from Indians. Greeks from Greeks. Jews from Jews. Chinese from Chinese." Korea=country India=country Greece=country China=country Jewish=religion This would appear to show some form of bias, or at…

You are correct. I did not want to sound racist. Perhaps "cultural ties" would be a better term. Btw, most of this happens because students with common cultural ties tend to socialize together in student clubs, etc.

Thanks for the reply, glad to see you here & participating.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#180
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Justin, I am the professor who wrote the article. The 44 hours is not a number to show how much extra I had to work. Believe me, a 14-hour day is a pretty common thing for me. Teaching is only part of my overall job (I also have to do research, supervise PhD students, review papers, serve on committees and many other things). The 44 hours figure is given just as a contrast to the actual time that I spent in class. I…

I realize you are trying to maximize the quality of education you are providing. I don't think you can use that as an argument against failing students who blatantly cheat. There's not an easy solution, obviously. You are taking a risk when you do something that some other members of your faculty are not doing. You must realize, they are threatened by your attempt to prevent cheating, because it will become obvious v…

I do regret letting the "copy & paste" students go relatively unharmed. I was naive to believe that they will not do it again. They were even more naive to try to cheat again in my own class.

Btw, all students were reported to the administration and have a mark in their transcripts that they cheated. This is communicated to all future employers and is an automatic block to entrance in law schools.

But again: 22 out of 108 is not a problem to be solved by force. It is a deep structural problem that got me thinking about evaluation strategies that are independent of cheating.

Btw, the girl was not crying to manipulate me. She really had a serious nervous breakdown, bringing out all sorts of issues that she had with her life. Apparently her parents kept reprimanding her for not "performing" at the university. There was a long term stress issue and the realization that she was going to fail the class was just the straw that broke the camel's back. But it was a very uncomfortable spectacle: her classmates outside my office looking at her, and other faculty members stopping by and making gestures, trying to figure out what is going on.

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